Help ID unknown 60mm mortar launcher

[weberoed]

Strange item 60mm mortar inside some kind of launcher tube with sealed outer case.

The item was dug up on Ft Bragg range 74 during improvements. RG 74 is a MOUT range, which is undergoing improvements. Decades ago the range was sort of a �do whatever� type range, used by SF. I also found it mentioned in old notes I have from an old demo course I attended at another facility in North Carolina, but only mentions a the range and nothing else.

Inside the container is a US M49A2 mortar with a M525 Fuze. The ignition cart and propellant bags were attached

The overall length is 440mm

The OD of the entire item is 95mm, this includes the inner Steel tube and outer aluminum tube. The outer tube has a large cone shape end that is secured by screwed to the main tube. The outer case does not appear to be a shipping case; it looks to be an integral part of the item.


Inside the cone shaped part is a firing pin channel with firing pin that goes all the way through the cone to the main tube. It appears as if det cord or some other firing device can be inserted there to push the free floating firing pin forward.

There is a large spring located between the bottom of the mortar and where the cone part is attached to the tube. This spring is not compressed, and because it is so short does not appear to be used to help propel the mortar. Also even with the spring completely compressed the mortar still could not reach the firing pin � so everything points to the firing pin haing to be propelled into the mortar cart primer. One thought is, it is a safety feature to keep the mortar from impacting the firing pin.

The EOD Techcenter does not have any info on it, but seems to think it is some sort of air dropped item.

The design is similar to a set up ID�d in the one of the old TM 31�s, where a tube is made with a propelling charge to throw out a 60mm mortar.
A couple thoughts were that is is an air dropped munition. Nothing was provided to support that idea though.

 

[Yodamaster]

Hello Weberoed,

on your second pic I can see something like a doble "wings" attached on the container. Are there other attaching point to see on the circumference of the container ?


Yoda

 

[bacarnal]

Weberoed, First, you might want to change your default text since it is black on dark grey and I had to look several time to find that there was text in that big blank spot above the pix. Now, on to the mortar. It looks like it would be a bounding sub-munition as you had alluded to. It looks like the nose (I'll call it a weight) has a drawing number on it and the M525 fuze seems, by the X-Ray, to be bakelite. If so, that would probably place it during WWII. Any way you could get better X-Rays of the nose weight to see if there is some sort of release for the firing pin inside that would let it extend once armed so that the mortar would strike it on (presumed) impact? I can't remember the range numbers at Bragg, having only done clearances there several times from Lejeune long ago, but there was one that was chock full of subs. Did this one come from there? Cheers, Y'all, Bruce.

 

[weberoed]

not sure why the text came up that color, will have to look into it. This is all the info and pics I have at this time. Been spending way too much time trying to ID it, need tog et back to my books.

Any help would be great
as for submintions, one theroy calls it a Mortar Aerial Delivery System (MAD), but all I find on it is 81 and 4.2 mortars, and they were just dropped

 

[weberoed]

see if this helps, haven't been ble to get any more info right now on this find. To clarify onbe point the firing pin appears to be free floating, could not find aby release pin or spring with it as it is. As for the M 525 fuze, it was still being used in Vietnam (have old mmo docs from that time showing it being issues. On another note that may or may not be related to this item, during Vietnam, for a long perios of time and by numerous aviation units, there was the Aerial Mortar delievery System. This system was made up of 81mm and 4.2" mortars and on occassion 105mm He projectiles. Their fuzes were repalced and M 159 or similair types bomb fuzes installed. They were used for close air support when USAF assests wre not on hand. I have a write up of how the system was dropped and how they armed the fuzes should anyone like a copy. All info came from After action reports that I down loaded from the Vietnam library at Texas Univ.

Strange item 60mm mortar inside some kind of launcher tube with sealed outer case.

The item was dug up on Ft Bragg range 74 during improvements. RG 74 is a MOUT range, which is undergoing improvements. Decades ago the range was sort of a “do whatever” type range, used by SF. I also found it mentioned in old notes I have from an old demo course I attended at another facility in North Carolina, but only mentions a the range and nothing else.

Inside the container is a US M49A2 mortar with a M525 Fuze. The ignition cart and propellant bags were attached

The overall length is 440mm

The OD of the entire item is 95mm, this includes the inner Steel tube and outer aluminum tube. The outer tube has a large cone shape end that is secured by screwed to the main tube. The outer case does not appear to be a shipping case; it looks to be an integral part of the item.


Inside the cone shaped part is a firing pin channel with firing pin that goes all the way through the cone to the main tube. It appears as if det cord or some other firing device can be inserted there to push the free floating firing pin forward.

There is a large spring located between the bottom of the mortar and where the cone part is attached to the tube. This spring is not compressed, and because it is so short does not appear to be used to help propel the mortar. Also even with the spring completely compressed the mortar still could not reach the firing pin – so everything points to the firing pin haing to be propelled into the mortar cart primer. One thought is, it is a safety feature to keep the mortar from impacting the firing pin.

The EOD Techcenter does not have any info on it, but seems to think it is some sort of air dropped item.

The design is similar to a set up ID’d in the one of the old TM 31’s, where a tube is made with a propelling charge to throw out a 60mm mortar.
A couple thoughts were that is is an air dropped munition. Nothing was provided to support that idea though.

 

[Eodtek]

Any possibility on getting a copy of the x-ray .tif file?

Mike

 

[US-Subs]

You cannot convert in Photoshop, or you are just looking for a better picture?

 

[Eodtek]

You cannot convert in Photoshop, or you are just looking for a better picture?

The original x-ray, not the photograph of the laptop screen that is shown above. The original file will be a .tif file that can then be worked with in one of the digital systems (like Logos).

 

[bacarnal]

Weberoed, We Jarheads used the M525 well into the '80's until we got the new mortar and new ammo with the M935 pd fuze or the M734 Multi Option Fuze. My point was that if the fuze was bakelite (black plastic), that would place it, along with the nose weight having a drawing number, during WWII or at latest, Korea. Don't know if this helps, but hope so. Cheers, Y'all, Bruce.

 

[Eodtek]

By the x-ray the fuze appears metal and un-armed but the x-ray we are looking at is a photo of the screen so it's really hard to tell any more without the actual image.

 

[bacarnal]

I'll agree that the striker is steel and it's cap and housing are aluminum, just as they should be, but from what I see from the penetration of the X-ray, the body holding the bore riding pin seems to be of a less dense material. Cheers, Y'all, Bruce.

 

[weberoed]

Sorry guys this is the best I can get for photos. Aas fro its time frame I am still trying to get info on a lot number that was on the mortar, but communications has slowed down right now. As for the fuze, it doesn't 't tell appear to be armed you can see the bore riding pin, as for the arming wire, I can't tell for sure but it appears to be missing, there does appear to be spme kind of wire near the base of the fuze but that wire seems too low to be the arming wire.

Right now I amopen to just about anything, at lest until I can get more info from the source. Thanks all for the help and input

 

[weberoed]

Am reposting this thread with the hopes someone new or someone who didn't see the first posting can help. First off sorry for the inital posts that are hard to read (have learned my lesson in paste and cut now when posting info).

There is a thought ths might be part of the Mortar Aerial Delievery System (MADS) that came about during Vietnam. Deploying 60mm, 81mm, 4.2" and I think 105mm HE rounds fuzed with frag bomb type fuzes (except the 60mm ussed normal fuze). The concept has been used in several other locations also.

As you will see this is a 60mm HE mortar setting on a very heavy spring, The round is inside a metal tube that is weighted at one end and has fins at the other. The mortar did not have any propellant increments attached. There was no firing pin for the mortar to hit and it is beleived the spring is too strong to over come the weight of the mortar on impact. It is this spring and no firing pin that conflicts with the thought that upon impact the spring would either be crushed back then recoil and throw the mortar out or upon impact the spring crushed in and the mortar hits a firing pin then propells inself out what ever distance the ignition cartridge would allow. Also the fuze was already armed (bore riding pin missing) -thought here was the mortar round did not experience enough setback when deployed to allow the fuze to arm naturally. Not the safest idea but would make sense under the thought of how the system might work.

The red coloring on the outer container (carrier0 tells me this was a experimental round - one they could find after it was deployed. maybe in this case the round was not suppose to leave the carrier? FYI as reported to me the mortar round was HE filled.

I know US subs pointed me toward this maybe being part of the MADS. But that has yet to be fully proven, as that system used some special built racks, etc and documents found todate do not describe this method.

Also this round was found on an old SF range at Ft Bragg, so could have just been a thought someone came up with.

Thanks