British Ordnance Collectors Network
Join over 14,000 collectors of inert military ordnance. Get expert identification help for shells, fuzes, grenades, and more — plus access our classifieds marketplace and decades of archived knowledge. Free to register, takes seconds.
Help with Torpedo drawing
- Thread starter BMG50
- Start date
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hallo,
me too I would very much like to get my hands on a copy of the old german book, the above drawings are taken from. Does anybody know the title of this book ? When did the model of the Whitehaed torpedo, pictured, appear on the market ?
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
me too I would very much like to get my hands on a copy of the old german book, the above drawings are taken from. Does anybody know the title of this book ? When did the model of the Whitehaed torpedo, pictured, appear on the market ?
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
Here's an old German torpedo book from around that era. Might find something useful.
https://archive.org/details/dietorpedowaffe00gercgoog
https://archive.org/details/dietorpedowaffe00gercgoog
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hallo Sir Roger,
thank you for posting the literature link. The book is very interesting. Many pages cover the "Maine" incident in Havanna very detailed, which started US Cuba politics. A scientific, turn of the century, explosive investigation. The scan of the book has been prepared by "Google". It seems they used a mashine to automatically flip pages. Like with many of the 19th century books, the plates, at the end of the book, are oversize and folded. Apparently the mashine did not recognise this and so only the folded down backside white paper was scanned. A GREAT pity. There may be beautiful coloured plates there, like in the foto that started this discussion.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
thank you for posting the literature link. The book is very interesting. Many pages cover the "Maine" incident in Havanna very detailed, which started US Cuba politics. A scientific, turn of the century, explosive investigation. The scan of the book has been prepared by "Google". It seems they used a mashine to automatically flip pages. Like with many of the 19th century books, the plates, at the end of the book, are oversize and folded. Apparently the mashine did not recognise this and so only the folded down backside white paper was scanned. A GREAT pity. There may be beautiful coloured plates there, like in the foto that started this discussion.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
I had a look and thought at first the pages were not downloading, so this explains why I can't see many drawings, some which would be very good. It would be even more great of the pages were in English as it looks a fascinating read with some interesting information. The torpedoes in the book are the type of fuze pistol I have That would fit that generation of torpedoes.
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hallo,
regarding the missing pages with drawings, at the end of historical books of the 19th century. I just downloaded 3 such titles from the german digital library. All 3 scans are defective regarding the drawings. This is a great pity, as the text always refers to these drawings. Does anybody here know anything about the digitalisation of old books, the techniques used ? One could assume that a mashine flips over the pages for scanning, but in 1 scan a human finger could be seen. This problem, of the missing (defective) drawing scans is universal. Are the scanners used, not able to work with these oversized, folded plates ? If anybody here knows anything about the techniques used, I would gladly hear about it.
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
regarding the missing pages with drawings, at the end of historical books of the 19th century. I just downloaded 3 such titles from the german digital library. All 3 scans are defective regarding the drawings. This is a great pity, as the text always refers to these drawings. Does anybody here know anything about the digitalisation of old books, the techniques used ? One could assume that a mashine flips over the pages for scanning, but in 1 scan a human finger could be seen. This problem, of the missing (defective) drawing scans is universal. Are the scanners used, not able to work with these oversized, folded plates ? If anybody here knows anything about the techniques used, I would gladly hear about it.
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
This problem have mostly the books scanned by Google and Microsoft. And yes they were scanned by humans, the fingers are very often seen on the scanned pages. Google was using an automatic image processing algorithm to remove the fingers but it's far from perfect 
Sometimes they also skipped over many pages which are missing completely in the scan. Google's scanning personel never opened folded tables, it seems they were forbidden to do so. I think their motto was more on quantity than on quality and making the scanning process as cheap as possible.
But there are also other digital librarys like Gallica (BNF) which did a very good job (color scans, very good resolution, all tables scanned in full size). In my eyes the most advanced digitalisation project in Europe, maybe in the world. They have quantity and quality.
Some years ago I was happy even about Google's scans because it was better than nothing. Now I have a different opinion because (at least some german) librarys (like bavarian state library) let scan their books by Google (in a worse quality) and now they say "hey, we have digitized our old books, we did our work" and don't improove anything.
I had a look for high resolution color scans of some books in German librarys. The average price was 5 € per page which is incredible high. A small book with 120 pages would cost 600 € - this is mostly more than if the book is for sale somewhere (sadly it isn't). Scanning the pages isn't a big job for the librarys. The "Bookeye" scanners which they are using can scan an A2 page in 600 dpi in 3 seconds. If this thematic would be in any of our party's program they would get my vote
@BMG50: did you find out the name of the book you are looking after? Is it a german book or maybe austrian?
Sometimes they also skipped over many pages which are missing completely in the scan. Google's scanning personel never opened folded tables, it seems they were forbidden to do so. I think their motto was more on quantity than on quality and making the scanning process as cheap as possible.
But there are also other digital librarys like Gallica (BNF) which did a very good job (color scans, very good resolution, all tables scanned in full size). In my eyes the most advanced digitalisation project in Europe, maybe in the world. They have quantity and quality.
Some years ago I was happy even about Google's scans because it was better than nothing. Now I have a different opinion because (at least some german) librarys (like bavarian state library) let scan their books by Google (in a worse quality) and now they say "hey, we have digitized our old books, we did our work" and don't improove anything.
I had a look for high resolution color scans of some books in German librarys. The average price was 5 € per page which is incredible high. A small book with 120 pages would cost 600 € - this is mostly more than if the book is for sale somewhere (sadly it isn't). Scanning the pages isn't a big job for the librarys. The "Bookeye" scanners which they are using can scan an A2 page in 600 dpi in 3 seconds. If this thematic would be in any of our party's program they would get my vote
@BMG50: did you find out the name of the book you are looking after? Is it a german book or maybe austrian?
Last edited:
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Thank you very much Alpini for your instructive answer. By the way, what do you think Sp. stands for in the caption of the plate " 45cm Kriegs-Sp." ?
Hallo BMG50,
if you downloaded the page from a digital library, the title and other particulars will be shown. If you give me this info, I will try to get the book through other channels and then photograph all the pages you need, for you.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Hallo BMG50,
if you downloaded the page from a digital library, the title and other particulars will be shown. If you give me this info, I will try to get the book through other channels and then photograph all the pages you need, for you.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Last edited:
I also wonder about the "Sp", maybe "Spitze"?
Unfortunately this is the only drawing I have which is part of a bigger drawing and it's from a unknown source. Just wondered what book publication it came from as the book would have the full drawing and related information. The Whitehead torpedo pistol i have is in previous posts under torpedo.
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hi Dronic69,
that would be a possibility, also I have not seen the term "Sprengpatrone" anywhere used to denote a torpedofuze. But, it is possible.
@Alpini,
thank you for putting me onto the french speaking archive. It is really very, very good. I'm mad at myself that I did not study french, when I was young and had the opportunity in school. I found the 1818 prussian "Feuerwerkerei" that was incomplete from the Bavarian source. Now at last I got it complete. It says that this issue is the 2nd printed issue. The first, handwritten instructions date from 1742 (Leutenant Schacht). There has to be a printed issue in between these 2 dates. Do you know when the first one was issued ? Many thanks.
regards,
Bellifortis.
that would be a possibility, also I have not seen the term "Sprengpatrone" anywhere used to denote a torpedofuze. But, it is possible.
@Alpini,
thank you for putting me onto the french speaking archive. It is really very, very good. I'm mad at myself that I did not study french, when I was young and had the opportunity in school. I found the 1818 prussian "Feuerwerkerei" that was incomplete from the Bavarian source. Now at last I got it complete. It says that this issue is the 2nd printed issue. The first, handwritten instructions date from 1742 (Leutenant Schacht). There has to be a printed issue in between these 2 dates. Do you know when the first one was issued ? Many thanks.
regards,
Bellifortis.
Trust me - I have seen the term "Sprengpatrone" used - mostly in old German /Austrian torpedo manuals (pre-1900), some of which are in the "old German" text. :tinysmile_twink_t2:
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hi Dronic69,
thanks for your input. Do you have information : title, date of publishing a.s.o. of 19th century manuals , that would make it possible to trace these ? I'm very much interested.
Greetings,
Bellifortis.
thanks for your input. Do you have information : title, date of publishing a.s.o. of 19th century manuals , that would make it possible to trace these ? I'm very much interested.
Greetings,
Bellifortis.