New Addition: Russian Ceramic Grenades

[jhonni \]

= Kilroy was Here =
I think it was a delay tube for boobytraps. What do you think, do you have any info? It would be a much shorter delay with it's length. It is marked. Maybe someone has a reference to these in Russian book or manual.

RE: No. The special version fuses by Koveshnikov for traps and mines was not. The standard fuse for grenades was used.

In last pic is One (1) very strange Koveshnikov fuze. It has coarse threads, look at picture. These two det tubes will Not fit this Kovesh. The fuse also has the cap that will not fly off when thrown. I have seen this type of cap on later dated fuzes also.

I think maybe fuze with the coarse threads, this is a very early Koveshnikov fuze??? What do know, or think about this?

Look at my photo... detonator have another threads and used with this body of fuze only!!

http://trizna.ru/galerea/albums/userpics/Koveshnikov_fuse.jpg


and more......

 

[US-Subs]

Jim,
while the Japanese guys I usually talk to are still out, I spoke with a Chinese colleague today (military) and showed him the pictures. As a number of the Japanese military type subjects borrowed Chinese characters he was able to get some of the general idea. He reports that it is a kind of "make your own" guide for ceramic weapons. This would seem to match the understanding that the ceramic grenades were a sort of "last ditch" home defense weapon for the Allied invasion.

Much of the document was too small for him to read, if you want a more specific translation when the others get back a higher res copy of the photos will be necessary. Have you still got my Hotmail address?

 

[Kilroy was Here]

=
RE: No. The special version fuses by Koveshnikov for traps and mines was not. The standard fuse for grenades was used.

In last pic is One (1) very strange Koveshnikov fuze. It has coarse threads, look at picture. These two det tubes will Not fit this Kovesh. The fuse also has the cap that will not fly off when thrown. I have seen this type of cap on later dated fuzes also.

I think maybe fuze with the coarse threads, this is a very early Koveshnikov fuze??? What do know, or think about this?

Look at my photo... detonator have another threads and used with this body of fuze only!!
and more......

Hello Eugene, Thanks for showing me this. Why the short det tubes?....were they of a different time delay, or the same 4-5 seconds delay? It seems they would be a shorter delay.

OK, so my Kovesh fuze body with "coarse threads" (fuze on the right in photo) that is missing detonator tube, is a very rare Stalingrad fuze?

I need to find one of these detonators with coarse threads that you show for the "rare" Stalingrad fuze. The detonator you show has slots or cut outs at the top where percussion cap would be. I need one of these if you ever find an extra one.

Are these early pre-war or early WW2?
Why the different thread sizes??

Do they have a reference to this type of fuze in any WW2 or pre-war Russian military manuals?

To make 2 different thread sizes is not a good thing to do. This could / and would cause logistical problems for the soldiers who where to use them.

Were there many of these type of Kovesh fuzes made? Why were they only made in Stalingrad...Blockade maybe??

Sorry for many questions.... I am still unsure a little bit, and want to know the correct info. I am very, very interested in all the small details, and time period of these Kovesh fuzes.
Please take you time Eugene when you read my long post, I understand you might not understand me completely, so just ask me if you do not understand about my questions. :nerd:

Regards, Steve
"Dr.Ruby"

 

[jhonni \]

Hello Eugene, Thanks for showing me this. Why the short det tubes?....were they of a different time delay, or the same 4-5 seconds delay? It seems they would be a shorter delay.

RE: My friend from Baltic area told me what that short fuze with normal time delay... Later i think i'll got that fuzes in my collect. Your short delay tube have another shape!

OK, so my Kovesh fuze body with "coarse threads" (fuze on the right in photo) that is missing detonator tube, is a very rare Stalingrad fuze?

RE: Why from Stalingrad Steve? That fuzes made in blockade Leningrad and other not blocated cities. In my posts i mean an internal threads for delay tube. In my photo you see detonators tube with another thread as usual (this fuse was from Kolpino - Leningrad region).

I need to find one of these detonators with coarse threads that you show for the "rare" Stalingrad fuze. The detonator you show has slots or cut outs at the top where percussion cap would be. I need one of these if you ever find an extra one.

RE: You mean a detonators cap in bottom of fuze?

Are these early pre-war or early WW2?
Why the different thread sizes??

RE: I think it's from WW2 period. Early Koveshnikov look at my picture http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24116&d=1262713169
(from the right)

Do they have a reference to this type of fuze in any WW2 or pre-war Russian military manuals?

RE: Unfortunately in manuals not info about measurement only
internal structure and parts..and in manuals many mistakes (in pictures).
I hope when we make a new book about grenades, we give an answer on more your question's.


To make 2 different thread sizes is not a good thing to do. This could / and would cause logistical problems for the soldiers who where to use them.

RE: Yep. But it was a great war. All man's go to war and kid's with their mothers work in factories... Doc's may be losted when factory mobilize, shortage materials and etc.

Were there many of these type of Kovesh fuzes made? Why were they only made in Stalingrad...Blockade maybe??

RE: I think it's from Leningrad region.

ooh!
Cheers!

Eugene.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

RE: My friend from Baltic area told me what that short fuze with normal time delay... Later i think i'll got that fuzes in my collect. Your short delay tube have another shape![/B]

******OK, the same time delay. But you also have different type of short det? it is different shape than mine?

RE: Why from Stalingrad Steve? That fuzes made in blockade Leningrad and other not blocated cities. In my posts i mean an internal threads for delay tube. In my photo you see detonators tube with another thread as usual (this fuse was from Kolpino - Leningrad region).

*****Sorry, I meant to say Leningrad!! The blockade!!

RE: You mean a detonators cap in bottom of fuze?

***No, I have a complete Kovesh and det. I need the "coarse thread type detonator" that will fit the Kovesh body I have shown in my photos. It has detonator threads that are coarse, not fine like 99% of the kovesh you will see. All the dets I have are the fine thread, and will not fit the "one" Koveshnikov fuze "body" I have, and have shown you photos. Do you see it in my photos??

Are these early pre-war or early WW2?
Why the different thread sizes??

RE: I think it's from WW2 period. Early Koveshnikov look at my picture http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24116&d=1262713169
(from the right)

Do they have a reference to this type of fuze in any WW2 or pre-war Russian military manuals?

RE: Unfortunately in manuals not info about measurement only
internal structure and parts..and in manuals many mistakes (in pictures).
I hope when we make a new book about grenades, we give an answer on more your question's.

*****Ahh. I see, thanks for this info. I will like to see your book!!


To make 2 different thread sizes is not a good thing to do. This could / and would cause logistical problems for the soldiers who where to use them.

RE: Yep. But it was a great war. All man's go to war and kid's with their mothers work in factories... Doc's may be losted when factory mobilize, shortage materials and etc.

****I see, there must not be many of these fuzes with the coarse detonator threads then.

Were there many of these type of Kovesh fuzes made with coarse det thread ?

RE: I think it's from Leningrad region.

*******Yes, not Stalingard!! Ha! sorry!!

ooh!
Cheers!

Eugene.

****** ooooh!!

Regards, Steve
"Dr.Ruby"

 

[grenades]

Hi Steve,
It was practice-battle(not practic-Im not sure what word used) grenade.Was used only as a practic grenade.Invented in 1939.Production started in 1940 and stopped in 1941.
Grenade had simillar shape like F1 ony frgmentation was more shallow becouse of diffrient type of manufacturing(was easier take out from form).Was filled with black powder.Det tube hasnt got det holder(was stright) like on picture the left one
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23893&d=1262483965
There was only black powder in det tube.Time delay 3,5-4,5 sec.
Was few time less strong than normal F1 so was more safty to practic and was blowing as a normal grenade.Safety area was about 65-80 feets(normal F1 even 650 feets).

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Hi Steve,
It was practice-battle(not practic-Im not sure what word used) grenade.Was used only as a practic grenade.Invented in 1939.Production started in 1940 and stopped in 1941.
Grenade had simillar shape like F1 ony frgmentation was more shallow becouse of diffrient type of manufacturing(was easier take out from form).Was filled with black powder.Det tube hasnt got det holder(was stright) like on picture the left one
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23893&d=1262483965
There was only black powder in det tube.Time delay 3,5-4,5 sec.
Was few time less strong than normal F1 so was more safty to practic and was blowing as a normal grenade.Safety area was about 65-80 feets(normal F1 even 650 feets).

Hi Simon! :hello: I guess a reply almost exactly 3 yrs later is better than never.... but it's OK my old friend...I've not been very active here for a while due to some family issues.....but I will look forward to your next reply on Jan. 10 2016!!! :laugh:

Thanks for this info you mention, it's very interesting, I have not heard or read this before. Did you get this info from the book at this link?? http://pelta.osdw.pl/ksiazka/B-Perz...inowe-Armii-Czerwonej-1918-1945,peltaG3A5OKOD ....I want to get this book, but have not got around to it yet...I need one of my Polish friends to help me find it : )

But....I'm not exactly sure what you are saying about "practice-battle" grenades....are you saying the Ceramic grenades I show in post #1 of this thread are in fact practice grenades.??.... (Most collectors have thought that the Russians tried the ceramic grenades experimentally for actual battle purposes, but they were found to be not effective and were discontinued).........

Or... are you saying that the in picture you show above that the Russians made a special "metal" shallow fragmented "F1" type body that used the short brass detonator I showed, and grenade was filled with black powder??

You are saying the short brass detonator tubes were only made for practice use?? this does not seem totally correct because Jhonni (Eugene) shows in post #21 above a short brass delay tube like I have shown that has a detonator cap crimped on the end??? it seems from the x-ray shown in Jhonni's picture this det tube would be for a standard explosive grenade??
But you say the short brass delay tubes used with black powder "practice grenades" only??
Please tell me more..and if possible... before Jan. 10 2016 :wink:
.

 

[zonk007]

Hi!
This is traning-battle granade (not practice). Traning grenade marks which fully imitates battle grenade.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Hi!
This is traning-battle granade (not practice). Traning grenade marks which fully imitates battle grenade.

Hi, thanks zonk.....I did not understand what the training-battle grenade was in the drawing of the grenade shown by member "grenades" Szymon in his post, but after reading and thinking more about what he says, I now understand he is saying that it actually exploded and was destroyed when it was used, it was not re-usable.
Some types of "training" grenades imitate a "battle" or a "live" grenade with only small amounts of black powder and real fuze to make smoke and loud noise, but did not destroy the grenade body and was re-useable.

But what I really do not understand.... is about the use for practice of the short brass delay-detonator tubes for Koveshnikov fuzes...Please read below

ATTENTION: I cannot edit my previous post as it is longer than 720 minutes!!!!! so I will post my edited reply below......

Hi Simon! good to hear from you...your addition to this thread almost exactly 3 yrs later is better than never.... but it's OK my old friend...I've not been very active here for a while due to some family issues...but I will look forward to your next reply Jan. 10 2016!!

Thanks for this info and drawing you show, very interesting, I have not heard or read this info before. Did you get this info from the book in this link you mentioned in another thread a year or so ago??http://pelta.osdw.pl/ksiazka/B-Perz...inowe-Armii-Czerwonej-1918-1945,peltaG3A5OKOD ......I would like to get this book, but have not yet...I need one of my Polish friends to help me find it : )

I was not exactly sure what you were saying about "practice-battle" grenades....but now I know you are NOT saying the Ceramic grenades I show in post #1 of this thread are practice grenades....BUT you are saying that the drawing you show is a Russian special "metal, shallow fragmented F1" body that used the "short brass detonator" I showed, and this grenade and the short fuze delay-det tube were filled with black powder.... So I understand these F1 "practice-battle" grenades were NOT re-filled and re-used, and were destroyed after only one use.

Many countries in WW2 had "practice" grenades that were not destroyed after first use and re-filled with small amounts of black powder and re-used many times like our US MkII pineapples, and the Soviet RGD-33 trainers that were made with very thick strong steel.... So if the F1 practice type you show in the drawing are destroyed after only one use, it makes sense after 2 years they would stop making them in 1941 to save steel-iron materials when the invasion of Russia began....and I'm sure they're rare to find... I've never seen or heard of this type early WW2 era practice F1...I've only seen and I have one of the non-explosive hollow metal "throwing" F1 practice type....you must remember this type as I got it from a good Polish friend we both know I have shown this hollow F1 and also a RG42 "throwing practice" grenade in another of my threads here.

What I don't understand and would like to know more about....Are you saying the short brass detonator-delay tubes like I showed were only filled with black powder, and made only for practice use??.... this does not make sense to me because Jhonni (Eugene) shows in post #21 above a short brass delay tube similar like I have shown that has a detonator "holder-cup" crimped on the end... it seems from the x-ray shown in Jhonni's picture this short det tube with crimped "holder-cup" would be for a standard high explosive battle F1 grenade?

If you say the "short brass delay tubes" were filled with "black powder only" and for practice grenades.. why does the short delay-det tube Jhonni shows have a crimped cap with what appears to be something other than black powder, maybe picric acid or fulminate of mercury?

Do you see what I'm saying? The short delay-det tube Jhonni shows has a crimped on detonator "holder" and from the X-ray pic it looks like it's filled with the same material as the longer standard Koveshnikov delay-detonator tube, but it's only shorter.....that was my original question ....why are they shorter? it seems to me a shorter tube would have a shorter delay time....this is why I thought the short ones were maybe for boobytrap-improvised mine use. Why would they make a shorter tube if not for delay time?
They could have used regular length tubes for practice. Some of the things the Russians did was crazy..they made and improvised so many things...it's all very interesting and not well known. This is part of why I have much interest to find new info about Soviet WW2 grenades and ordnance.

Now I'm quite confused by what you say and show...and the photo's shown by Jhonni and the info he tells about the short det tubes

Please try to tell more..and show more pics if possible... maybe sooner than Jan. 10 2016 OK?

Maybe there should be a separate thread made about these early war practice F1's and all other WW2 Soviet practice grenades??

 

[grenades]

"Originally Posted by Killroy was Here"
"Hi, thanks zonk.....I did not understand what the training-battle grenade was in the drawing of the grenade shown by member "grenades" Szymon in his post, but after reading and thinking more about what he says, I now understand he is saying that it actually exploded and was destroyed when it was used, it was not re-usable.
Some types of "training" grenades imitate a "battle" or a "live" grenade with only small amounts of black powder and real fuze to make smoke and loud noise, but did not destroy the grenade body and was re-useable. "

Thanks Krilan and Steve to explain what I wonted to say.I think I could say that it was "training-live" grenade and I think it will be the right name.

This grenade dosnt need to have fuze with cup filled with picric acid or somhing similar becouse grenade was filled with black powder.Brass detonator-delay tube filled only with black powder was enought to blown grenade.
A lot of grenades from wwI had only black powder in fuzes becouse grenades was filled with black powder(for example german eggs or kugels)
Johnni showed diffrenet type of fuze with modifications to economize on brass.Delay tube was shorter but thanks stronger compacting black powder in delay tube delay was the same as in normal fuzes.

 

[tighe_n]

If you can find one of these Russian ceramic grenades, complete with fuze what is the going value of a nice one? I would like to find one, but don't know what a good price would be if I come across one. Thanks

 

[Tmine35]

As they usually are dug-ups the body in most cases has been cracked due to that the steel thread sleeve has expanded by rust. I have seen several during years but only one or two not cracked.

 

[tighe_n]

I have never seen one, but would like to find one for sale. What did the ones you have seen sell for? I have no idea what price range they go for cracked or complete? Thanks