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Pain & Sons 37mm/38mm purple smoke WWI

C

copdoc

Well-Known Member
This is the larger diameter "1.5 inch" as used in Webley, Webley/Federal gas guns(1920-30s), H&R lend lease and US M8 flare gun(WWII)

Marked "purple smoke, parachute cartridge, made by Pain & Sons, London "

Headstamp "Eley London"

Dated 24-8-16 in ink on case

Very old inert lable

I would be interested in seeing other cartridges of this calibre from WWI if anyone has different colors or loading.

20170128_100023.jpg
 
Very nice and very hard to find. I don't have any 1.5" cartridges in my collection from before WW2. Could you post a pic of the label please? Cheers Tig.
 
Wow wow wow what a fantastic item well done , would it be possible to see the head stamp..... Dave
 
Thanks Guys, here are a few more pics. I have never seen any others from WWI.

I hate it was inerted considering it's smoke. They could have at least left the parachute.

These phone pics in poor light but if they are not good enough I can get better ones tomorrow.


2017-01-28 22.10.49.jpg2017-01-28 22.09.47.jpg2017-01-28 22.04.45.jpg2017-01-28 22.08.31.jpg2017-01-28 22.08.31.jpg
 
Here are some better pics Brian. (I hope) Headstamp could be cleaned a bit without damage but I just left it the way it was. Color does not look quite the same on the purple case as the pics.

Dave, on your case, I am glad you asked. I have been wanting to share this info with someone interested. I had not thought about it in several years. I have seen these empty cases and been told they are punt gun cartridges by some pretty knowledgeable people. I have not see a catalog listing them or a gun to shoot them. Nobody had any references that I could find.

BUT

In the 1920s Federal Labs bought Webley shoulder stocked flare launchers and converted them to tear gas guns for US Law Enforcement. (ref, pic from Federal training manual showing early guns)

Federal Labs experimented with gunpowder to burn the CN that they wanted to use in shells for this gun. They found out that the best gunpowder to burn the CN was "EC blank fire powder" made by the Explosives Company of England (Eley/Nobel). The only ones making EC blank powder in the US was the US military. Federal could not buy from them so they bought powder under contract from ECE in London. (ref TG Munitions, Thomas Swearengen, 1966)

I have never seen a cartridge like this loaded with shot, flare, tear gas or smoke.

If this were loaded with shot I am not sure the cartridge case could withstand the pressure it would take to launch shot at a velocity adequate for duck hunting.

My speculation is that ECE (Eley/Nobel) made these empty cases, based on flare cases, as samples hoping to sell them to Federal Labs. That is why they are all new unloaded and unfired. Things like this are often passed around and kept on desks.

For you Brits, did the UK manufacture tear gas munitions during the 20s and 30s? If so who made the cases?

Comments and references are welcomed especially on the genealogy of Eley/Nobel/ECE at that time. Maybe update wiki if you can.

purple 1.jpgpurple 3.jpgpurple 2.jpg

tear gas 1920s.jpg
 
SAM_0023.JPGSAM_0022.JPGGreat item and interesting thread. The best I can offer is a fired and empty WW1 1.5" Green flare casing marked C.T.B 9.17 Headstamp as pic. It will have survived 100 years this September.
 
copdoc said:
That's it. Thank you.
Interesting that it was designed to use from aircraft.
Click to expand...
The cartridge case configuration was used for illuminating and coloured signal (lights) as well as coloured smoke, in these cases all with a parachute but there were versions without parachutes.

The Imperial War Museum used to have a good collection of WW1 service fireworks but I believe that they were discarded in recent years. One thing that was evident in viewing these pyrotechnics was the lack formal nomenclature markings on them. The payload was identified and there were date stamps and manufacturers initials stamped on but the item description was left to a paper label using partly commercial firework company speak rather than a full Ordnance Regulations nomenclature. I'm not totally sure what our air services used the signals for but presumably IFF, spotting and aids to landing would use a variety of signals, some with parachute and some definitely without. Some signals were classified stores, especially in Naval service, and they are not well documented.

Regarding your question about British use of AR agents the Services had lachrymatory stores etc., designed by the appropriate defence establishment, from WW1 onwards. The earliest record I have found for a commercial company dabbling in this area is Nobels in the 1920s. Blacker (of Bombard fame) developed the equivalent of an anti riot rubber bullet in the 1930s. This was for firing off of an SMLE and was later equipped with a tear agent. After WW2 a company called Civil Protection Ltd supplied grenades and cartridges but I believe these were all made by Federal.

...and then came Schermuly, Wallop, Pains, Haley and Weller etc.
 
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Nice. If I had been on the ball, I would have posted the purple smoke last year on its 100th birthday.
 
Dave I believe your cartridge is a punt gun cartridge case, you see a lot in brass but the size and lack of markings on yours point towards this. All my WW1 era 1" flares are marked in one of more ways, but always marked. Either a Mk No on base and coloured band, or no mark and coloured band and details to closing cap. I would also be interested to see someone fire that from a flare pistol! I can post pics of some tomorrow to show what i mean if this helps? Rollers flare is the norm. Here is another Parachute one from the Great war forum for reference. Tig:tinysmile_grin_t: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/183039-flare-gun-ammunition/
 
mvc-172s.jpg
Picture of the Pain's hand grenade as used by the military for training . This is probably a WW1 version but is similar to the WW2 issue No 84 grenade [if not identical] . I was mortified to hear from Bonnex that the IWM collection of military use fireworks has been disposed of . I remember that collection displayed in the 1950's & it was a magnificent , colourful display & included examples by all the main manufacturers including Pain's , Brock , Wessex & others . So sad these important historical artifacts should be deemed unimportant in the 21st century . I assume empty display versions of fireworks are considered a bit non PC these days......
 
I have these pictured here,
on the left another variation,a white parachute flare,the flare has been removed but still retains the parachute inside.
on the right,what I believe to be a punt gun cartridge,loaded with BB shot,this came in a brass protective sleeve,I
presume to keep dry before loading when out hunting duck.
It was stated in this thread that it was doubtful that a cartridge of this size could withstand the pressure of being
loaded with shot,but surely it is the breach that withstands the pressure not the cartridge.
 

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Thanks to everyone for responding.

The purple smoke chambers in Webley/Federal gas gun and the US M8 pistol. Not in unmodified Federal 203 series, Coston/ Sedgley or TruFlite guns. My friends punt cartridge fit in the Webley/Federal long gun so it would fit the M8 and others in the same calibre.

There are many variations and modifications of flare/tear gas/smoke in 1.5" I would like to see a book or paper written on it if any one knows of one. To complicate it some guns were modified. I have AAI drawing that shows how to modify earlier guns to shoot their Ferret rounds.

I don't know if all 1.5" paper shells are construted the same. My friend (AAI member for decades) identified his shell as a punt gun shell. It looked exactly like signal and smoke cartridges from the time. He had never seen a loaded punt shell or a fired one marked as a punt gun shell and did not have any catalogs showing either loaded or unloaded punt shells.

Im not saying it's not a punt shell just wondering if there is any period information on the shells. Knowledge on the Internet continues to expand so eventually more info might surface.

The shell loaded with BBs is either for a punt gun or a small artillery piece.

I like the brass case and have never seen one. Water protection makes sense. I also see where in the trenches of wwi these could have been useful.

Nice Pyro grenade. I have 2 Roman candles Dad saved just after WWII. They were made by the same company, M Backes & Sons, that made the illumination grenade brought back by my childhood neighbor. I had these for decades not realizing they were made by the same company into a few years ago.

Adding pics. Hard to read this on a phone. 20170201_174848.jpg
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Thank You Mach1bang for the info and pictures of your loaded Eley Nobel Cartridge for sure now my case is the same as your one just my one is light faded blue, one day hopefully we can find out what fired these cases,,,,,,,, Dave
 
millsbomber said:
Thank You Mach1bang for the info and pictures of your loaded Eley Nobel Cartridge for sure now my case is the same as your one just my one is light faded blue, one day hopefully we can find out what fired these cases,,,,,,,, Dave
Click to expand...

Hi Dave,
the photos were taken not in daylight ,so colours are never as true then,but for clarification mine is a medium blue,not as dark as
navy,but as we know they will fade in sunlight,mine had some protection from the brass sleeve.

I don't know if this is true,but was told sometime ago that these cases were also loaded as blanks for whaling harpoon guns,
but I have not been interested in finding any info on this.
 
DSCN8510.jpgDSCN8509.jpgDSCN8515.jpgDSCN8505.jpgDSCN8506.jpgI just found this old posting and wish to show my two early British signal cartridges. Both are 1.5".

1. Short 100mm case. The green over white band seems the wrong way round. I only note white changing to green as a parachute signal which was obsolete in 1920. This is too short for a parachute but I did not see a green and white star combination listed.

2. A parachute signal inerted with a wooden cap. it includes the brownish-white paper parachute 510x510mm (20"x20"),on 4 brown 16" strings and a card tube. The case is double walled except for the last 6mm where the cap fits in.
232mm overall (9 1/8"). 217mm case (8 1/2"). 14mm brass. Primer is a.32 S&W case.
Most punt gun cases seem only single walled cases and often have a .320 revolver case as a primer.

A nice Holland (or H&H?) break-open 1 1/2" punt gun sold in Melbourne around 2010? at an arms auction.
I opened it and saw it had a long chamber but the $5K price was not in my wallet at that time.
 
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