Red Illumination or Smoke

[jvollenberg]

I apologize for the poor pictures. These images were captured from an Ebay sale several years ago. I never was able to ID it, but it looks like a rifle grenade with either red smoke, or red illumination. I have no measurements ... just these pics.

Has anyone seen something that looks like this?

I will also see if I can find better images.

Joe

 

[Bonnex]

Joe,

German signal (WW1) for Granatenwerfer (and for a lightweight projector). I will see what docs I have but hopefully someone will post some good information. Propellent cartridge in the tail tube.

 

[jvollenberg]

Thank you ... if nothing else I know what it is and where to start looking.

Does anyone have internal drawings of this item?

Joe

 

[Bonnex]

Joe,

Best I can do for the moment.

 

[jvollenberg]

Thank you ...

That's an interesting system. I have never seen the messenger round for it.

Joe

 

[Bonnex]

Thank you ...

That's an interesting system. I have never seen the messenger round for it.

Joe

Nor have I Joe. The Signal projectiles used to be quite common in the UK but a serious accident in a Government establishment involving one of these was followed by a programme, perhaps I should say 'pogrom', to eliminate the risk in public museums. Many were destroyed.

The signal component was easily removed from the projectile and presumably many museums considered them FFE but invariably the propelling cartridge, which comprised a GP filled short cylindrical tube with a percussion cap, remained in place. Investigations by scientists at Fort Halstead concluded that the chemistry of the percussion caps in many of the sample projectiles examined had become ultra-sensitive and likely to be the main contributor to the accident.

The inspection of museum collections that followed the accident also threw up dozens of live cartridges in other spigot projectiles. Live 7.92 propelling cartridges in the Wurfgranate were probably the most common but PIAT and Blacker Bombard were not far behind.

 

[trrrr]

Another picture of granatsignal.Total FFE.

 

[Millsman]

I've had a few of these. A couple have had hand painted unit markings on the side. I spoke to a man a while ago who had actually fired one from the launcher!

John

 

[jvollenberg]

Does anyone have a cutaway and the hazardous components portions?

 

[Joerg]

Hier eine schlechte Darstellung. Gruss Joerg.

 

[Bonnex]

Does anyone have a cutaway and the hazardous components portions?

Joe,

Herewith a couple of sketches found by old friends at Waffen Revue.

 

[jvollenberg]

Cool ... so there is a small one and big one.
Thanks ... Joe

 

[Correus]

Cool ... so there is a small one and big one.
Thanks ... Joe

Actually there are several variations of this shell... There are tall & short fat headed ones as well as tall & short skinny headed ones and a few in between! The "red" indicated a red illumination, "green" for green, "yellow" for yellow and "white" for white. The illuminations could be in the form of flares as well as parachute flares.

Those used to "signal" transmit specific messages (such as artillery fire) were called "Signalpatrone / S-Munition" and those used to illuminate the battlefield were called "Leuchtpatrone / L-Munition".

These shells were typically fired by a Signalwerfer but could also be fired by the Granatenwefer 15 & 16.

Interestingly enough the shells were also intended to be used to to send items to other locations (example - from a trench to a shell hole). These items could be extra ammunition, food, physical messages, first aid items and so on.

I have one of the larger versions with no markings whatsoever so it's assumed it's one of those intended to be used sending items from one location to another - but there is no proof to this. In fact, I have yet to run across a documented instance where this actually happened the way it was intended to.

As to the propellant....yes - the original was so volatile that the Germans eventually abandoned it for something less so. I want to say it's Mercury(II) fulminate, a.k.a. Hg(CNO)2, but this could be the one for the early detonator fuzes on the Wurfgranate 15 & 16....my detailed notes are not handy at the moment.

I've added a few pics for you. The last one is of my Gr.W.16 that shows the shell I have.