Three things

[Slick]

First, a prefragmented cylinder. Obviously a component.
59mm long, 38.6mm OD, 31.8mm ID. 32.3mm base OD.



Secondly, an 81mm mortar round. Looks Japanese to me. Maybe late war, made in a hurry.



And then a 75mm projectile.



No markings of any sort on any of them. Maybe someone of you has an idea about details on these. Thanks.

Rick

 

[US-Subs]

mortar is not Jap, if I recall correctly I think it is Dutch? There are a couple of variations. The cylinder is an unfinished submunition body, for either an M42 (155mm M483) or an M77 (MLRS). An M46 would have no pre-fragmentation scoring inside.

 

[xxxx]

Hi Rick,

I think I can help you identify the Mortar. It is a French 81mm WW2. I have one in my collection purchased by my Father several years ago from "Seigfreid" MS on Spec Auctions. I mention this as Mike knows his stuff and this was how it was described so am fairly certain it is French and not Japanese. The Body of the grenade is painted black with the top three inches painted white (I will try to take a picture tomorrow and show you).

Marcus

 

[Slick]

OK. Went and gathered up some other samples, thanks to y'all narrowing things down.

The unfinished submunition bodies are an exact match, dimensionally, for the M42. Looks like, from the pictures I saw, the M77 may be a little longer. Also, the "prefrag" internal scratchin's are more than likely a design to give "teeth" to the energetic mix vs frag cut. I thought they were a little shallow. It's all comin' to me, now.


Here's the M42:

As for the mortar round, well, there's a bit of a problem with the tails. Have looked at a lot of pictures and all of the 81mm French rounds have the shorter fin set as noted on the top and bottom rounds. The Fr. and Jap., respectively, are near identical. The long tail is still an unknown. At least, I haven't found a document showing that fin style with a French connection.



Still interested in the bullet.

Rick

 

[Yodamaster]

Hi,
I will not bring more confusion, but the tail of this mortar let me thing on the british tails of 4"2 inch !
A japanese assembly of french and british ?

Yoda

 

[xxxx]

Here is the picture promised from last night - The grenade in question (top) apparently was acquired from French EOD. Looking forward to the definative answer in due course.

Marcus

 

[BMG50]

Most French 81mm rounds usualy have the multi grove windage band as to the plain band.

 

[US-Subs]

OK. Went and gathered up some other samples, thanks to y'all narrowing things down.

The unfinished submunition bodies are an exact match, dimensionally, for the M42. Looks like, from the pictures I saw, the M77 may be a little longer. Also, the "prefrag" internal scratchin's are more than likely a design to give "teeth" to the energetic mix vs frag cut. I thought they were a little shallow. It's all comin' to me, now.

Rick

The M42/77 bodies are the same, they differ only in the width of the arming ribbons, due to the difference in release velocities.

I've asked Mr. Mortar in Chicago fir a document on the mortar, I think I recall him having it, whatever the country. In the meantime here are mine, in the various sizes.

 

[Slick]

Jeff

Your initial thought on the mortar was that it might be Dutch. Are you still leaning in that direction? One of the references I ran across made mention that their 81MM rounds were made by Brandt(French).

Rick

 

[US-Subs]

I don't know, Jerry J was doing the research on it a few years ago and that was his feeling initially. I seem to remember that he finally identified the maker, but cannot say for certain. He has forgotten more than I will ever know on the subject, so I will let you know what he has to say when he responds.

 

[HAZORD]

Rick,

I believe your AP-T projo minus rotating band is really a M79 3 inch or 76mm Army projectile. Rotating band groove is too wide for 75mm. You might want to double check the diameter of the body.

Is there a reason why all the items in the initial photos were sandblasted?

 

[Slick]

Haz

I'll recheck the OD.

The submunitions were covered in rust, the projectile and mortar rounds had "aftermarket" paint jobs, and rust and dirt. They will be appropriately repainted when details emerge.

Updated with measurements: 75.58mm/2.975"

I'm happy with the M79 designation. Looks to be the sure thing. Sure wish it had a rotating band.

 

[blu97]

The mortar round is defiantly not Dutch.

 

[US-Subs]

Finally got a response back, he says he finally found a reference, at least for the 81mm version. Says it is a WWI French, pneumatic fired. It will take him some time to dig up the ref.

 

[Slick]

The tail/fin assembly appears to be designed for a propelling charge. Anxious to see the details.

 

[Slick]

So, Spotter was able to find a similar example in a trove of pictures he had. Seems this example is of WW1 vintage. And French. A tad bit of difference in the tail fin holes, but otherwise that same design. The body/nose is of what I assume to be an early version. Am guessing mine may be a between the wars edition.

 

[doctor]

HI
about the mortar, mine have green head and stencilled 18 in white
Stamping under gascheck B 32 18 E
For me it's french mortar Brandt used since 1918 and after

 

[Slick]

Doctor

Thank you for those details. Is it, in fact, a pneumatic round or does it have/use a propelling charge?

And, would it be possible for you to post pictures of your example?

Regards

Rick

 

[doctor]

Hi
The name of this round is BM modle 18 for Stokes mortar but in 81 mm not in 76 mm like primitive mortar round
Head green is for French MD explosive composition
Propelling charge is in cartridge ( 12 gr of EF pouder and 0.5 gr of fine pouder for ingnition)to put into the base tube vanes and additional pouder in little bag can be added between vanes

 

[Yodamaster]

Hi Slick,
here some drawings and text about your 81 mm mortar.
Hum, evidently, it's in french ! Sorry !

"Thanks to H. Belot for his beautiful docs"


Yoda