My small V-40 collection. I will start from right to left and save the best for last. Far right and the one next to it are Dutch NWM manufacture. The center one is U.S. made, as is the cutaway to its left. The far left one is a cutaway made in Taiwan. I have never seen anything written on a Taiwanese V-40 (or whatever they called it), but this came from the original crate. Unfortunately I was not in a position to photograph the crate or record markings. Anyone else have a reference covering this one?
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V-40 Grenades
- Thread starter EODGUY
- Start date
V40
Well-Known Member
EODGUY,
Weren't all V40's made were of Dutch manufacture. MACVSOG seems to have used the ones from CISO in Okinawa which were bought from the Dutch. The Chief of the CISO was Ben "Conrad" Baker. He had a small Building, One story I believe, and he was the "Q" from the James Bond movies. Whatever SOG needed or he thought of something ideal, he would then have his crew produce it, or he'd buy it from foreign countries.
Oh My Lord if I could only have one job back then it would of been Chief Of CISO and if that didn't work than I would do the job of running recon in Laos, Cambodia, and North Vietnam of course!
"Conrad" had also every type of mine and boob-trap devices from WWII. He had the largest collection of detonaters for anything you wanted. For example; he had dozens and dozens if not cases of the chemical igniters used in WWII and up. He also bought the initial batch from the Dutch as far as the V40 is concerned.
He also bought "Asrolite" as much of the substance as he could resonably buy for SF Recon Teams. Astolight came out of that time frame when we were looking for beter rocket engines. Astrolight did well in SEA with a few difficulties.
And on & on & on.
I apoligize for hijacking this thread. Please, forgive me and I will try much harder next time to stay focused on the subject of the thread. Also for information that I thought some of you would enjoy hearing.
My apoligies to HAZORD.
Weren't all V40's made were of Dutch manufacture. MACVSOG seems to have used the ones from CISO in Okinawa which were bought from the Dutch. The Chief of the CISO was Ben "Conrad" Baker. He had a small Building, One story I believe, and he was the "Q" from the James Bond movies. Whatever SOG needed or he thought of something ideal, he would then have his crew produce it, or he'd buy it from foreign countries.
Oh My Lord if I could only have one job back then it would of been Chief Of CISO and if that didn't work than I would do the job of running recon in Laos, Cambodia, and North Vietnam of course!
"Conrad" had also every type of mine and boob-trap devices from WWII. He had the largest collection of detonaters for anything you wanted. For example; he had dozens and dozens if not cases of the chemical igniters used in WWII and up. He also bought the initial batch from the Dutch as far as the V40 is concerned.
He also bought "Asrolite" as much of the substance as he could resonably buy for SF Recon Teams. Astolight came out of that time frame when we were looking for beter rocket engines. Astrolight did well in SEA with a few difficulties.
And on & on & on.
I apoligize for hijacking this thread. Please, forgive me and I will try much harder next time to stay focused on the subject of the thread. Also for information that I thought some of you would enjoy hearing.
My apoligies to HAZORD.
Those are very nice,I have been kicking my self in the ass for about 30 years now,when I first started collecting grenades I had a chance to buy a 1971 dated v40 for $40.00,but passed on it not realizing at the time how rare they are,anyone out there got one for that now.im crying..:tinysmile_angry_t::tinysmile_angry_t::tinysmile_angry_t:
I'm curious as well, I'd also always been told that they were all Dutch, one contact said he even knew the man who was responsible for procurement, flying back and forth to the NL. Any details on a US manufacturer would be great.
On a related subject, these are two variants that were related to the V40 program and were made in the NL by NWM, for the past ten years I've been told by collectors and specialists here that they were CS loads. Now recently some were shown again on BOCN and it was said that they were diver signals. I can concede that they are a similar size as many diver signals, but most diver signals have no spoons. Also most diver signals are steel bodies, and with no need for vent holes, as they contain enough fill to sink them. Does anyone have a reference for these so that I can get a positive ID?
Attachments
I cannot shed much light on the source of any of the V-40's. I obtained my "US" ones way back when we were testing them with the idea of adoption. They were given to me by a friend at Aberdeen Proving Ground who was on the Infantry Test Board that tested them. If I recall, his comments were that the original test items were procured from NWM, but these two were part of a small US production contract to see if we could produce them cheaper and have the same performance. Cannot verify those comments, can't say who made them and I have no reports or documents that address the testing or US manufacture. As for the Taiwan ones, again I cannot say who made them. I took this one out of a full crate, in a bunker controlled by Taiwan and there were no markings on the grenade, box or storage paperwork that indicated NWM manufacture or they were from a US source. Their story was they made some to test for their special ops troops and decided not to use them. Everything I have is verbal and paperwork on any V-40 is about as hard to find as one of the genades. Sorry I can't clear up the confusion.
In another few weeks a good portion of my library should make it home (1.5 tons of books, manuals, documents etc). Buried somewhere in there I have a couple of factory flyers I found that advertise the V40 for NWM. Most of these types of flyers are print dated, this may help a little, depending on what is shown and the date given. Bring the subject up again in a couple months and I'll see what I can do.
Thanks Tim, can you look at the very back of the leaflets and see if there is tiny print at the bottom with print dates?
Nice document Tim thanks for showing
From my recollection from talking with the late Henk Visser, the VP at NWM, Mauser & the Quandt Group......NWM sold the rights to the V40 during 1972 or so. From what I remember the whole package was sold to a US entity along with some other defense products......the weird thing is that I am intimately familiar with the V40 from 1967 through 1972. I have never seen a so called US manufactured V40......and I do not claim that one never was made. It just deosn't make much sense since the Vietnam war was winding down, and we were sitting on tens of thousands of them in the US and in S.E. Asia in Okinawa and Taiwan (the US Advanced training site stockpile). I never bothered to ask Henk who bought the V40 rights.
If anyone, Cadillac Gage or Bauer Ordnance could have made them, since they were closely partnered with NWM (Stoner 63A system licensee) and Bauer (Mauser commerical rifle importer to US & US Military subcontractor for rifle bayonets with capability to stamp out V40's). But knowing the end users for these during this time frame, the work was probably farmed out through what was left from Frankfort Arsenal's test support group (since the arsenal was closed down during the 1960's.) Phillie had the largest grenade fuse manufacturer located there.
Having one show up in Taiwan doesn't surprise me at all because of who had a large logistics facility there, but it doesn't make much sense on having them make them since the US was supporting the Nationalists so heavily. Technically it does make sense since there seems to be quite a difference with the firing pin arm and top end (maybe simplified by a couple steps......The US made version seems to differ in the paint....being a dull Olive Drab, versus the shiny epoxy from NWM.
If anyone has a Taiwanese V40 or US Made V40 with an inert fuse......we can find out more info, as I still have a contact who worked with NWM at Dynamit Nobel on subcontracting the V40's fuses. We can trace lot numbers to the manufacturer(s) of the non-NWM V40's.
What I do know is that earliest V40's had writing painted on the sides (mainly the inert training grenade). I have a copy of the 1967 technical prints, which I will post up when I figure out how to do it.
The technical prints show that the lot numbers HAD to be painted on the base of the grenade body for the HE model. The prints also showed the two different types of bandoliers......one a plastic "zip lok" style and the other a plastic impregnated fiber style with snap hooks on the sling.
From working in the Middle East for the U.S. Government, I can say that as late as 1982, the US issued V-40's to certain security types.......and all were marked with lot numbers in the 1971 range. I also carried a V40 issued to me in Central America by the U.S. Embassy (grenades were defensive you see :nerd:. It was also a 1971 model, since I still have it mounted to a wall plaque.
Canada also had to destroy all their V40's in the 1980's...as they had adopted it. The fuses went bad, so they say....and several soldiers were injured when they had no delay on releasing the safety arm when thrown. There was an extensive report on the Canadian tests of the V40 which resulted in the detruct order. I will try and find it.
I have several dozen V40's and a couple V41 inert trainers in my collection. I AM looking for an original V40 rifle grenade adapter. I was supposed to trade with Henk Visser for one of his, but he unfortunately passed away before we could talk again.
It was a novel weapon idea that should have made NWM millions of Kroners, but I think something caused it to fall by the wayside. NWM's bullet through rifle grenade was a success in the market, but they also ended up selling/giving it to Mecar, with it being copied by FN as the Telgren in the late 1980's.
Anyone with a NWM V40 rifle adapter........who wants to sell or trade it.....let me know.......I will post the tech sheets when I can get home to a scanner.
I will also have several NWM V40 sales brochures to offer too in trade etc.
If anyone, Cadillac Gage or Bauer Ordnance could have made them, since they were closely partnered with NWM (Stoner 63A system licensee) and Bauer (Mauser commerical rifle importer to US & US Military subcontractor for rifle bayonets with capability to stamp out V40's). But knowing the end users for these during this time frame, the work was probably farmed out through what was left from Frankfort Arsenal's test support group (since the arsenal was closed down during the 1960's.) Phillie had the largest grenade fuse manufacturer located there.
Having one show up in Taiwan doesn't surprise me at all because of who had a large logistics facility there, but it doesn't make much sense on having them make them since the US was supporting the Nationalists so heavily. Technically it does make sense since there seems to be quite a difference with the firing pin arm and top end (maybe simplified by a couple steps......The US made version seems to differ in the paint....being a dull Olive Drab, versus the shiny epoxy from NWM.
If anyone has a Taiwanese V40 or US Made V40 with an inert fuse......we can find out more info, as I still have a contact who worked with NWM at Dynamit Nobel on subcontracting the V40's fuses. We can trace lot numbers to the manufacturer(s) of the non-NWM V40's.
What I do know is that earliest V40's had writing painted on the sides (mainly the inert training grenade). I have a copy of the 1967 technical prints, which I will post up when I figure out how to do it.
The technical prints show that the lot numbers HAD to be painted on the base of the grenade body for the HE model. The prints also showed the two different types of bandoliers......one a plastic "zip lok" style and the other a plastic impregnated fiber style with snap hooks on the sling.
From working in the Middle East for the U.S. Government, I can say that as late as 1982, the US issued V-40's to certain security types.......and all were marked with lot numbers in the 1971 range. I also carried a V40 issued to me in Central America by the U.S. Embassy (grenades were defensive you see :nerd:. It was also a 1971 model, since I still have it mounted to a wall plaque.
Canada also had to destroy all their V40's in the 1980's...as they had adopted it. The fuses went bad, so they say....and several soldiers were injured when they had no delay on releasing the safety arm when thrown. There was an extensive report on the Canadian tests of the V40 which resulted in the detruct order. I will try and find it.
I have several dozen V40's and a couple V41 inert trainers in my collection. I AM looking for an original V40 rifle grenade adapter. I was supposed to trade with Henk Visser for one of his, but he unfortunately passed away before we could talk again.
It was a novel weapon idea that should have made NWM millions of Kroners, but I think something caused it to fall by the wayside. NWM's bullet through rifle grenade was a success in the market, but they also ended up selling/giving it to Mecar, with it being copied by FN as the Telgren in the late 1980's.
Anyone with a NWM V40 rifle adapter........who wants to sell or trade it.....let me know.......I will post the tech sheets when I can get home to a scanner.
I will also have several NWM V40 sales brochures to offer too in trade etc.
I was shown some stuff by a semi-local collector just a few days ago (BOCN member), he had a V40 that he wanted to show me which was modified onto a different type of rifle adapter, it looked more like a US attempt. On disassembly I noted that several things were different about the grenade, particularly differences in the spoon and the fuze well (smaller). After comparison we determined that it was identical to the one shown in EODguy's photos and identified as coming from Taiwan. Now I'm even more confused. Tried to take a photo, but some of my photo gear is in transit and the rest had dead batteries. Maybe he will post some pix for us. Otherwise I'll try again next time.
Hi All,
I went through all my V40 stuff and I have come to the following conclusions:
EODGuy's excellent collection photo from 16 Mar shows the following from left to right:
1. Very early V40 from about 1967. Fuse is completely different from later ones, ring has 3 winds at top and is unfinished, which we can not see from this view. If dated, probably from first test batch. I have the developers original test report copies to a Certain Intelligence Agency, which I am unable to identify. It is pictured there and I will scan and link a copy.
2. Dutch V45 mini grenade. Later model and fuse is different and body is more "longer and less spherical than V40. Almost sames size, but coining is different and fuse and weight is different. Designed for different projection range and frag effect than V40. Also corresponds to different 40mm HE load specs, which the grenade body developed from.
3. Late production V40, may be from post 1972, when V4o was dropped by NWM and sold to new manufacturer (Taiwan?).....external finish is more matte, but still GI, and corresponds to US and NATO frags. I have never seen one, but would like to :xd:
4. NWM Inert V40 trainer. Should be smooth and uncoined body inside. Very hard to find. Most were kept on desks of trainer and procurement officers. Rarest ones were sealed in lucite with NWM logo at bottom and given away as souvenirs.
6. Production V40 by NWM. Standard O.D. finish, almost glossy like an epoxy seal. First lots has a nicely applied lot number and identifier at bottom. Later production had sloppy applied lot info. These are what we commonly see in collections. Some still have live fuses, which should be dealt with appropriately and safely.........the real nice ones have a solid V40 practice or V41 practice solid fuse bogy inserted.
Hope this is helpful.
I went through all my V40 stuff and I have come to the following conclusions:
EODGuy's excellent collection photo from 16 Mar shows the following from left to right:
1. Very early V40 from about 1967. Fuse is completely different from later ones, ring has 3 winds at top and is unfinished, which we can not see from this view. If dated, probably from first test batch. I have the developers original test report copies to a Certain Intelligence Agency, which I am unable to identify. It is pictured there and I will scan and link a copy.
2. Dutch V45 mini grenade. Later model and fuse is different and body is more "longer and less spherical than V40. Almost sames size, but coining is different and fuse and weight is different. Designed for different projection range and frag effect than V40. Also corresponds to different 40mm HE load specs, which the grenade body developed from.
3. Late production V40, may be from post 1972, when V4o was dropped by NWM and sold to new manufacturer (Taiwan?).....external finish is more matte, but still GI, and corresponds to US and NATO frags. I have never seen one, but would like to :xd:
4. NWM Inert V40 trainer. Should be smooth and uncoined body inside. Very hard to find. Most were kept on desks of trainer and procurement officers. Rarest ones were sealed in lucite with NWM logo at bottom and given away as souvenirs.
6. Production V40 by NWM. Standard O.D. finish, almost glossy like an epoxy seal. First lots has a nicely applied lot number and identifier at bottom. Later production had sloppy applied lot info. These are what we commonly see in collections. Some still have live fuses, which should be dealt with appropriately and safely.........the real nice ones have a solid V40 practice or V41 practice solid fuse bogy inserted.
Hope this is helpful.
Ah, an operationally issued V40.
I carried one in a GI shotgun ammo canvas belt pouch for quite a while in Lebanon and mine looked like that. It still went bang when I pitched it.
With an alternate light source with filter you can probably still see the lot number. I used to use a Surefire 6V flash light with either IR or Blue filter and you can sometimes see the paint impressions.......it can sometimes feel like magic when the writing pops up.
Nice original V40.
Cheers
I carried one in a GI shotgun ammo canvas belt pouch for quite a while in Lebanon and mine looked like that. It still went bang when I pitched it.
With an alternate light source with filter you can probably still see the lot number. I used to use a Surefire 6V flash light with either IR or Blue filter and you can sometimes see the paint impressions.......it can sometimes feel like magic when the writing pops up.
Nice original V40.
Cheers