WW1 German Torpedo Gyroscope ????

[butterfly]

Is this a WW1 German Torpedo Gyroscope???

my reason behind thinking this, is that there is what appears an identical gyro currently for sale on ebay, but that one is engraved as being removed from a torpedo taken from the German Submarine U-53. see here .......
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131609442690?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


now although I dont doubt the listing and provenance, I have long since learned to get hard evidence before giving an item a title and labelling it as such.

Ideally I would like to know the type of torpedo this was used on, by means of documentry evidence. However this may not be possible and as such any help in regard to this item will be most welcome.

regards Kev

 

[Michel]

I don't know the answer to your question, as I am looking for g7 torpedo drawings myself. But the asking price on eBay is this a price somebody is going to pay for such an item? I would like to own one, but at this price never!
Here is a picture of a G7 torpedo stuck in the torpedo tube, taken late this summer and left to rust for ever.
I would like the drawings of this one.

 

[Dronic69]

Hey Kev.

Now that's one great looking gyro!!!

May I suggest you reach out to "Natter" as his main focus is German torpedoes and may have some documentation on this.

Unfortunately I only have documentation on WW1 Whitehead torpedo gyros

Cheers
Drew

 

[butterfly]

Hey Kev.

Now that's one great looking gyro!!!

May I suggest you reach out to "Natter" as his main focus is German torpedoes and may have some documentation on this.

Unfortunately I only have documentation on WW1 Whitehead torpedo gyros

Cheers
Drew

Thanks Drew for the pm (I cannot reply though as your inbox is full!!)

Whilst looking for information on this gyroscope, which appears almost non-existant - I came across this photograph, it is very very similar, but not identical.
it is entitled 'Gyroscope torpedo (1929) - Built in the arsenal of torpedoes Cartagena'
I wonder if this is a copy of the type I have, and if so, does that go any way to narrow things down as to the type of torpedo that mine was fitted to?

I have added a comparison, side by side photograph, to show just how similar these two are.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Giróscopo_de_torpedo_(1929).jpg

regards Kev

 

[butterfly]

Some further pictures showing the serial numbers and other markings.

The gyro is stamped all over with the serial number 4113, some parts just being marked 13

the outer 'bracket' however is marked up with the number 11202. I thought at first that this was a 'replacement' part or an item that got switched, that is until I removed it. On the lug to which this outer bracket is mounted the gyro itself also carries the number 11202, so it would appear that this was always a 'married' pair.

Now this raises the question is this outer bracket actually part of the torpedo to which it was mounted, or, is it simply a bracket for securing it in a storage box? In my limited knowledge I know that the gyroscopes were matched up to individual torpedoes, so could the number 11202 be the torpedo number for which this gyro was fitted?

as always more questions than answers!!

photos below of markings on the gyro.....

Kev

 

[Natter]

g7 torpedo drawings myself.

What torpedo are you asking for? "G7" can imply different types, depending on nationality and timeframe. For instance, the main german WW2 Kriegsmarine torpedoes were variants of the G7a and G7e (53,34cm of approx 7m lenght). You also have the WW1 Reichmarine G/7 torpedoes.

Here is a picture of a G7 torpedo stuck in the torpedo tube, taken late this summer and left to rust for ever.

That's an old torpedo (WW1 and backwards), but making an exact id from that picture is impossible...
I haven't much data on the german G/6 and G/7 torpedoes besides what you can find in Rössler's book, but as far as I can tell, they both had 3-blade propellers like the one in your photo. Ie they might be suitable candidates, both being 50cm torpedoes of 6 and 7m lenght. But, there were many torpedoes with such propellers, including british ones.

I have attached two photos of a german (G/6 or G/7 I think) and a british - not so easy to distinguish them without more details...

 

[Natter]

I wonder if this is a copy of the type I have, and if so, does that go any way to narrow things down as to the type of torpedo that mine was fitted to?

It seems to me that designs have been copied (or licensed between factories/countries for construction and development) widely - especially in those early years, so it can be really hard to find out the correct origin of objects from let's say 1920 and backward (in modern days better systems with proper design-id's and lot-/serialnumbers etc have been implemented, making it more easy).

To me, it's obvious that the those two gyroscopes are similar and probably have a common origin.

I have attached a couple of photos showing the german GA VIII gyroscope used in G7a and G7e torpedoes (1930's design) and the TR53/IV gyroscope from 1962 (Whitehead, Rijeca). Obviously "related".
The german WW2 torpedoes have also influenced other designers: The swedish TP61 torpedoes from the 1960's-80's (611/612/613) have many similarities with the G7a torpedo, and a lot of the swedish tools are identical to the german ones and can be used on the G7a torpedo (and vice versa).

 

[Michel]

Hello Natter,

I'm looking for info on the Kaiserliche Marine G6 / G7 torpedo's the info on the ww2 German torpedos is available, but the ww1 is version not to be found easily. The picture off the one in the tube is definitely a German one because it's a German sub. And looks like the one in your second picture. Do you have any idea where the picture is made.
groet Michel.

 

[Natter]

I'm looking for info on the Kaiserliche Marine G6 / G7 torpedo's the info on the ww2 German torpedos is available, but the ww1 is version not to be found easily.

I don't think the k.u.k. Marine used neither G/6 or G/7 torpedoes.

The picture off the one in the tube is definitely a German one because it's a German sub.

You're probably right, but just for the record: Germany did also use torpedoes of foreign manufacture (like the Italian Whitehead G/250 etc).

And looks like the one in your second picture. Do you have any idea where the picture is made.
groet Michel.

The second picture is of a british torpedo in the War Museum of Valetta, Malta.

There's a german G/6 AV torpedo on Malta as well (I believe it's the same museum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjCHNNgrVI8 (I have better photos of it, but I can't find them now).

There is (or was?) one or two G/7 torpedoes in the Deutschen Museum in München.

 

[Natter]

I'm looking for info on the Kaiserliche Marine

Relevant books you should check out:
http://www.nwv.at/marine/1074_die_torpedos_in_der_kuk_kriegsmarine/
http://www.christian-schmidt.com/product_info.php?products_id=4436

 

[Michel]

I don't think the k.u.k. Marine used neither G/6 or G/7 torpedoes.

As far as I am aware the kaiserliche marine (not the kaiserliche und koningliche marine of the Austro-Hungarian double monarchy)
used the 45cm and the 50cm G6 and G7 torpedo among others. did the kaiserliche marine use other types? The k.u.k. Certainly did.

The books look very interesting, although they seem to be about Armement of the k.u.k. Navy.

 

[Natter]

As far as I am aware the kaiserliche marine (not the kaiserliche und koningliche marine of the Austro-Hungarian double monarchy)
used the 45cm and the 50cm G6 and G7 torpedo among others. did the kaiserliche marine use other types? The k.u.k. Certainly did.

Ooops... I was obviously a bit too fast with my previous post

It's hard to keep track of the "different german navies":
* Preußische Marine 1701–1867 (PM)
* Reichsflotte 1848–1852 (RF)
* Norddeutsche Bundesmarine 1867–1871 (NB)
* Kaiserliche Marine 1871–1919 (KaM)
* Vorlaufige Reichsmarine 1919-1921 (VRM)
* Reichsmarine 1921–1935 (RM)
* Kriegsmarine 1935–1945 (KM)
* Der Deutschen Minenräumdienst (German Mine Sweeping Administration) 1945–1956 (DDM)
* Volksmarine (DDR) 1956–1990 (VM)
* Bundesmarine (BRD) 1956–1994 (BM)
* Deutsche Marine 1995–dd (DM)


So far, I have been able to compile the following list of torpedoes (primary based on the information from the books of Rössler and Krauss):

KaM (1871-1919)
Whitehead Fiume Standard: 35cm/4,5m
C/74 (Whitehead Fiume Mk I): 35cm/4,65m
C/76 (Whitehead Fiume Mk II): 35cm
C/77 (Whitehead Fiume Mk III): 35cm
Bau 1 (Schwartzkopf Bronze-torpedo, rebuild of the Fiume Standard)
C/79 (german-rebuilt Whitehead model): 35cm
?? (Schwartzkopf "bronze-torpedo"): 35cm/4,5
C/84 (BMAG/Schwartzkopf): 35cm/4,67m
C/84A (BMAG/Schwartzkopf): 35cm/4,67m
C/84B (BMAG/Schwartzkopf): 35cm/4,67m
C45/91 Br (BMAG/Schwartzkopf "bronze-torpedo"): 45cm
C35/91 (BMAG/Schwartzkopf): 35,55cm/4,75m
C45/91 S (Schwartzkopf "stahl-torpedo"): 45cm
C03 (BMAG): 45cm/5,15m
C03D (BMAG): 45cm/5,15m
C06 (BMAG): 45cm/5,65m
C06D (BMAG): 45cm/5,65m
C/07 (BMAG): 45cm/6m
G/6 (BMAG): 50cm/6m
G/6D (BMAG): 50cm/6m
G/7 (BMAG): 50cm/7m
H/8 (BMAG): 60cm/8m
A/08: 45cm
M/143 (never fielded)
G/6 AV:: 50cm/6m
E/7 (never fielded):
G/125 (Whitehead): 45cm
G/250 (Whitehead): 45cm/5,47m
K I (adapted version of the G/6 for use by merchant ships): 50cm/6m
K II (adapted version of the G/6 for use by merchant ships): 50cm/6m
K III (adapted version of the G/6 for use by merchant ships): 50cm/6m

VRM (1919-1921)
E-To (never fielded)

RM (1921-1935)
UR/1 (never fielded)
G7s (never fielded): 50cm/7m
G7v: 50cm/7m (Gerät 10)
G7a(TI): 53,34cm/7,163m (Gerät 12)
B-To (never fielded)
C-To (later renamed to Ceto 1): 53,34cm/6,96m
G6a (never fielded): 53,34cm/6m
G7a6 (never fielded)
G7e(TII): 53,34cm/7,163m (Gerät 20)

Corrections/additions are welcome (but we are perhaps a bit off topic now...)