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17 pr APDS Question

Weasel

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Here is are a couple of photos of a projectile i came across last weekend, can anyone add any info on the coloured rings Two white and one blue and the fact that it is stamped up 17pr APDS and 77mm.
I was unable to get any info about it at the time and could not remember seeing another quite like it.
Best regards Weasel.
 

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I have this info which was posted in the past by other members.

The book and the photo show 4 bands, yours seems to be missing the red one.
 

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Hello Andy, nice projectile, but i have looked at the pictures and i notice that the projectile is stamped 17 ponder and 77 mm, this is the first projectile that i have ever seen with those markings, i think very very rare, i can be wrong but i think you have something special, i have seen the markings on AP projectiles but never on a APDS, top job. Ben
 
77mm means it is the APDS projectile for the shorter version of the modified 17 pdr (Shorter shellcase) as use in the Comet tank. To prevent mix up of cartridges up the supply line , the cartridge for the Comet was called 77mm, although in fact 75mm.
 
Experimental

Weasel it is an "experimental" version-hence the DD/L numbers !

Being 45 dated it is hard to say exactly what is "Experimental" about it, but a very nice find indeed.
If it comes apart it may well look something like this one !
 

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Hellp PZgr 40, that the markings means that they are for both cases thats clear, but i have never seen these stampings on the APDS, only stamped 17 pounder, what we can understand, but using the APDS on the 77 mm is strange!
 
17 & 77 ?

Weasel as Ben says, a very rare item.

Ben, the only time I have seen 17 Pdr and 77mm on one shot is a 1948 Experimental Armour Piercing Potted Sabot APPS/T which was a collaboration between Britain and Canada (Dominion Arms Co).

This Shot entered service very briefly as D/50080106/D. with the description being changed to A.P.D.S./T, QF 17-Pr. and 77-mm, CDN, Mk 1.

You can just see the 77mm stamping around the side of the projectile.
 

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Hello Chris, yes its a very rare and strange projectile, i must say good word Andy
 
17 pdr. APDS.

Here is are a couple of photos of a projectile i came across last weekend, can anyone add any info on the coloured rings Two white and one blue and the fact that it is stamped up 17pr APDS and 77mm.
I was unable to get any info about it at the time and could not remember seeing another quite like it.
Best regards Weasel.
Hi, this is a trial projectile for : accuracy improvement, part of the problem was eccentric movement of the centre of gravity of shot in the bore. Trials showed by slight adjustments of the C of G. and centering the shot a substantial improvement of accuracy was acquired. A Mark.2 APDS projectile design was therefore embarked upon - an m.d of 6in. at 1,000 yds. was their objective. Trials with the Mk.2 showed improved performance against space plate targets. NB. The shot stamped 17 pdr. is the scarcer of the two markings. The absence of red band could indicate no trace as this might complicate the evaluations, recall its a trials projectile and each shot would have been marked on the projectile, yours is 27 l think? Cheers, RonB.
 
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17 pdr. & 77mm. APDS

Hellp PZgr 40, that the markings means that they are for both cases thats clear, but i have never seen these stampings on the APDS, only stamped 17 pounder, what we can understand, but using the APDS on the 77 mm is strange!
l have to say this, its not strange, the same projectile is used in both cases. First a 17pdr. APDS round issued & marked 17 pdr APDS lBT. Few months later a 77mm. APDS round issued & marked 17 pdr & 77mm. APDS lBT. From then on both calibres (once old projectile stocks exhausted) bor the later markings - this took place in 1944. The 77mm. APDS rd. was a superb loading - very accurate and still near good as the higher velocity 17 pdr rd. re. penetration. Hope this is of help. Cheers mate, Ron.
 
Hi all,
Thank you very much for all the info, i have to say that this round is not in my collection, i wish it was but i am working on it. It never ceases to amaze me how much knowledge there is on here. Thanks again for all your responses and input.
Best regards Weasel.
 
17 pdr & 77mm.

Hi Weasel, as l could read the blurb on your apds - it is from a report on the progress of development, however can not image the info as their are all sorts of S----T stamps on it. Trust you will understand. Ron.
 
l have to say this, its not strange, the same projectile is used in both cases. First a 17pdr. APDS round issued & marked 17 pdr APDS lBT. Few months later a 77mm. APDS round issued & marked 17 pdr & 77mm. APDS lBT. From then on both calibres (once old projectile stocks exhausted) bor the later markings - this took place in 1944. The 77mm. APDS rd. was a superb loading - very accurate and still near good as the higher velocity 17 pdr rd. re. penetration. Hope this is of help. Cheers mate, Ron.

Hi Ron, it says 17 pdr AND 77mm. It could be a way to mark the projectile for factory purposes to make clear the Projectile is suitable for both guns. The 77mm gun for the Comet is in fact 75mm
 
Hi Ron, it says 17 pdr AND 77mm. It could be a way to mark the projectile for factory purposes to make clear the Projectile is suitable for both guns. The 77mm gun for the Comet is in fact 75mm
No doubt your correct the assembled projectile and other components - case, primer & propellant would be sent onto a filling factory say Kirby? Lancs for final assembly and boxed. so l agree with you. Cheers, good luck, RonB. PS. Am sure you know or can workout why the 77 was 75mm.?
 
Ron,

I'd be grateful if you could enlighten me as to how they altered the c. of g. and what steps they took to improve the centering of the projectile.

Thanks

TimG.
 
17 pdr. & 77mm. APDS.

Hi Tim, they changed the c. of g. (in these trials) by moving TC core to rear a minute amount and altered base angle of sub-projectile. Re. the centering, it was concerned with adhering to very close mfg. tolerances with emphasis on forward petal brake points. Cheers, Ron.
 
No doubt your correct the assembled projectile and other components - case, primer & propellant would be sent onto a filling factory say Kirby? Lancs for final assembly and boxed. so l agree with you. Cheers, good luck, RonB. PS. Am sure you know or can workout why the 77 was 75mm.?



The same is done with US ammo. The 106mm recoilles gun is in fact 105 mm calibre. It is done to prevent the wrong ammo ending up at the wrong part of the front. Example , if the 106mm recoiless is called 105mm, it might end up with the tank troopers whom use 105mm cartridges. The clear difference between the numbers 105 either 106 mm gives more clues to the meant weapon than any text following.
 
Hi Ron, it says 17 pdr AND 77mm. It could be a way to mark the projectile for factory purposes to make clear the Projectile is suitable for both guns. The 77mm gun for the Comet is in fact 75mm

Surely the true calibre of the O.Q.F. 77mm was 76.2mm and not 75mm?
 
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