17 pr APDS Question

[RichardB]

Well to add confusion, I have 3 x 17PR/77mm APDS projectiles, all marked differently and decreasing verbosity with age.....so starting with the earliest

1. Marked with: - APDS - 17PR & 77MM - 7/43
2. Marked solely with: - 17PR - 4/44 (although the April date is feint)
3. Marked with: - APDS - 17PR & 77mm - IBT - RLB ^ D - 3,45 (plus a few other odd markings/symbols)

Can take more pictures if anyone is interested.

Rich

 

[poltewerke]

Well to add confusion, I have 3 x 17PR/77mm APDS projectiles, all marked differently and decreasing verbosity with age.....so starting with the earliest

1. Marked with: - APDS - 17PR & 77MM - 7/43
2. Marked solely with: - 17PR - 4/44 (although the April date is feint)
3. Marked with: - APDS - 17PR & 77mm - IBT - RLB ^ D - 3,45 (plus a few other odd markings/symbols)

Can take more pictures if anyone is interested.

Rich

Yes Richard please do. Could the first one you mentioned be 1948 and has partial half strike? By the way, l owe you a photo am l correct. Will send off this Friday/Saturday. Best regards. RonB.

 

[proditto]

17pr/77mm

Picture of my 17pr AP T DS with 77mm markings and 'T'.
Ignore yellow as this indicates FFE.

 

[argonaut]

Hellp PZgr 40, that the markings means that they are for both cases thats clear, but i have never seen these stampings on the APDS, only stamped 17 pounder, what we can understand, but using the APDS on the 77 mm is strange!

Intended to reply to another msg - below.

 

[argonaut]

Weasel as Ben says, a very rare item.

Ben, the only time I have seen 17 Pdr and 77mm on one shot is a 1948 Experimental Armour Piercing Potted Sabot APPS/T which was a collaboration between Britain and Canada (Dominion Arms Co).

This Shot entered service very briefly as D/50080106/D. with the description being changed to A.P.D.S./T, QF 17-Pr. and 77-mm, CDN, Mk 1.

You can just see the 77mm stamping around the side of the projectile.

Mine has the in-service markings you've given, which are followed by "CA4". (The A is inside the C).

Also have a few of the tungsten carbide cores that gave these and the 6 pdr AP round their punch. These cores are ogival at the front end,
so blunter than the one shown in an earlier post. They must have used a separate ballistic cap.

Before its takeover by SNC in the late-60s, Dominion Arsenals Ltd produced a lot of Canadian military ammunition.
The small arms ammunition I've seen is marked "DA".

 

[charley777]

Just to be clear...both the "77mm" and the "17Pr" are 76.2mm calibre.
As i understand it, the 77mm (which uses the 3in 20cwt AA case and is identical apart from the headstamp) was introduced for situations where the 17Pr gun was just too big and heavy e.g. the Comet tank turret.
And as it turned out, although the 77mm has a substantially smaller case than the 17Pr, the performance was not so inferior as regards penetration.
77mm..... 76.2x420R x116
17Pr....... 76.2x583R x135

 

[Tony Williams]

The pic below (from the Ammo Photo Gallery on my website) shows WW2 tank gun ammo: German on the left, British on the right. You can compare the sizes of the 77mm and 17 pr cases.

You need to be careful about comparing their performance, though, as there seems to be a commonly-repeated error which shows the 77mm as being closer to the 17 pr in penetration than it actually was. The RAC Tank Museum's 'Fire & Movement' quotes the 17 pr APCBC as penetrating 118mm/1,000 yards/30 degrees and the 77mm as 110mm - but in fact the 77mm would penetrate around 100mm in the same circumstances.

Incidentally, the US 76mm gun penetrated 89mm and the 75mm penetrated 62mm, with the 6 pr managing 80mm - in all cases using APCBC at the same range and striking angle.

 

[PaulSmith]

Here are pictures of the Canadian projectile I have. It dates from October 1949. The tolerences obetween the core and projectile body are impressive - it slips in like it's on a cushion of air. If I recall correclty the little aluminum bushing that site atop the core was patented by F. Janecek (Littlejohn fame).

Paul

 

[SG500]

Here are pictures of the Canadian projectile I have. It dates from October 1949. The tolerences obetween the core and projectile body are impressive - it slips in like it's on a cushion of air. If I recall correclty the little aluminum bushing that site atop the core was patented by F. Janecek (Littlejohn fame).

Paul

Lovely projectile Paul, thanks for showing it.

Dave.