M24 stick grenade. Original?

[1944kam21]

hello Friends!
Look this M24 hand granade. Any opinions about this item? 1st time i see any granade with ubungstielgranate description on the head...

Tomek

 

[Tmine35]

Never heard of b-grantate of this kind. At least the small text on label sounds written by hand. If I see it correctly the cap does not turn out and is fixed. Thus this could be an Ex-granate, if any real one which I personally doubt.

 

[sudelmuk]

Not my special field, but the white label is more than suspicious!
The term 'Stielgranate' is almost nonsens in this context, 'Wa Prof 1' a typing error and 'Adolf-Hitler-Street 33' seems to me quite ridiculous.
I believe it being a fake, made by a non German-speaking person.

 

[siegfreid]

It's a fake . The markings on the top are completely wrong . Hope this helps.

 

[EOD]

Also the SS had no Waffenamt but the Reichszeugmeisterei stamped as "RZM".

 

[Kilroy was Here]

I saw this one on egun also Tomek. 199 euro. I agree what has been said. Richard Rinker markings on can are not right, and it's a fantasy label. If it was 20 euro I would buy it just to have an interesting example fake grenade.

 

[EOD]

Richard Rinker markings on can are not right

Mainly because this is no Richard Rinker logo.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Mainly because this is no Richard Rinker logo.

HaHa...nice joke.....I hope??? :elefant: What do you think RR markings on the head and stick mean? It's a well known fact this is the Richard Rinker Co......and this company made hundreds of thousands if not millions of M24 stick grenades...also fuzes and other items....
You will also see the RR markings back to back....in other words with one R on the left backwards facing...

I'll try to find some pics and post later.....

 

[Tmine35]

Richard Rinker had tens of production plants or subsuppliers manufacturing in Rinker's name. The number after RR indicates the plant. I had once an opporturnity to investigate a few hundred fuze package labels marked with RR and number. Interesting feature was that all labels have written also the city where the plant was located and then I learned they were in so many places.
Also RR was sometimes written like this and sometimes the first R was reversed. Unfortunately I made no study to see if either version was bound to certain numbers or was it changing during years.
Sudelmuk has studied manufacturers widely but I'm not sure if he has found a rule when the first R is reversed and when not.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Richard Rinker had tens of production plants or subsuppliers manufacturing in Rinker's name. The number after RR indicates the plant. I had once an opporturnity to investigate a few hundred fuze package labels marked with RR and number. Interesting feature was that all labels have written also the city where the plant was located and then I learned they were in so many places. Also RR was sometimes written like this and sometimes the first R was reversed. Unfortunately I made no study to see if either version was bound to certain numbers or was it changing during years.
Sudelmuk has studied manufacturers widely but I'm not sure if he has found a rule when the first R is reversed and when not.

Yes Reino it's very interesting and amazing that Rinker had so many production plants and sub-suppliers in so many cities manufacturing in their name. That's really nice that you live in Finland where you have been able to examine in person & in-hand with your own eyes, a large amount of war materials that were acquired by Finland or left behind in your country & surrounding areas after the war, and that have survived all this time.
I have seen Sudelmuk's excellent, and very interesting & informative list, the Rinker info from it is shown below (Vielen Danke meine freund, I hope you do not mind sharing this info)... if I have counted correct, there are about 40 different markings to be found on Rinker made or sub-contracted items...Rinker was truly a huge contractor and I think also the oldest....I'm also not sure if Peter knows the exact "rule" of the time-date era of first reversed R or why the reversal of R was even done (maybe he has found out recently and will let us know) ....But at this time I can say with almost 100% certainty that the R logo reversal was sometime between 1935 and 1941-42 :laugh: when the 3 letter Rinker codes started to be used....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

22A 1940 Normen-Lager-Gesellschaft Trinks Cie. Schraubenfabrik, Berlin ZZ 35

90 Bergmann Elektrizittswerke AG, Berlin-Wilhelmsruh ZZ 35, T.Mi.Z.35

M 113 36 "Hagenuk" Hanseatische Apparatebaugesellschaft Neufeldt Kuhnke, ZZ 35, DZ 35 B

37 Werk Kiel

217 1938 ??? Immelborn DZ 35

227-40 "Nhmatag" Nhmaschinenteile-AG, Radebeul ZZ 35

336 Richard Rinker GmbH, Menden/Iserlohn Ei-Handgranate 39

M 343-40 Nrnberger Schraubenfabrik GmbH, Nrnberg DZ 35

344-37, 39 "Hagenuk" Hanseatische Apparatebaugesellschaft Neufeldt & Kuhnke S.Mi.Z.35, ZZ 35, T.Mi.Z.35
GmbH, Berlin-Tempelhof DZ 35

351-38 Widerstand GmbH, Hannover-Brink T.Mi.Z.35

384-38 L.O.Dietrich "Vesta"-Nhmaschinenteile, Altenburg ZZ 35, Kippznder 43 (frh), T.Mi.Z.35

M 401-36 Hermann Khler AG, Nhmaschinenfabrik, Altenburg DZ 35 B, T.Mi.Z.35, ZDSCHNANZ 29

469 1939 Schenk & Krschner Metallwarenfabrik, Thal/bei Ruhla ZDSCHNANZ 29

470 1940 Elektrotechnische Metallwarenfabrik Storch Stehmann GmbH, Ruhla ZZ 35, ZDSCHNANZ 29

485 1935 Maschinenwerke zu Frankfurt/Main, ebendort Brennznder 24

492-39 S.Elster Gasmesser- und Gasapparatefabrik, Berlin DZ 35

493 1938 ?? Karlsruhe-Durlach T.Mi.Z.35, SMiZ.35

495 1940 Metallverarbeitung Schneweide, Herbert Greinert, Berlin S.Mi.Z.35

504 Lignose Sprengstoff-Werke GmbH, Werk Lechfeld/Augsburg Glhznder 28 & 28 b

507 ??? ZZ 35, ZuZ 35

508 1939 Georg Beibarth Metallwarenfabrik, Nrnberg ZZ 35

509-40 "Mesco" Metallwarenfabrik, Lambertz & Schreiber Nachfahren, Meiez ZZ 35

510 Galler, Hamburg-Altona

548-1940 Willhem Richter, Hannover S.Mi.Z.35

551 1939 Vollmann & Schmelzer Metallwarenfabrik, Iserlohn S.Mi.Z.35

552 Paul Liebner Schraubenfabrik, Luckenwalde

561 1939 Jung & Dittmar AG Metallwarenfabrik, Bad Salzungen S.Mi.Z.35

563 40 F.Snnecken, Bonn-Poppelsdorf ZZ 35, ZDSCHNANZ 29

564 1939 Wilhelm von Hagen Wwe. Metallwarenfabrik, Iserlohn Stielhandgranate 24

606 Alfred Gauthier GmbH Feinmechanik & Maschinenbau, Oberreichenbach S.Mi.Z.35

801 1940 "Nirona"-Werke Nier & Ehmer, Auto- und Fahrrad-Zubehr, Beierfeld bei Schwarzenberg Stielhandgranate 24

933-40 Rachmann Metallwerke, Haida/Sudetenland ZZ 35

985-40 Josef Mellert Fabrik fr Feinmechanik, Bretten ZZ 35

RR 1938 Richard Rinker GmbH, Menden/Iserlohn S.Mi.35, ZuZ 35, Glhznder 28 b, Nebel-Brennznder 38
Brennznder 24, T.Mi.35 & b

RR 1939 Richard Rinker GmbH, Neubrandenburg ZZ 35

RRE, RRK, RRO Richard Rinker GmbH, Menden/Iserlohn ZuDZ 29, ZDSCHNANZ 29

RRM 1936 Richard Rinker GmbH, Menden/Iserlohn ZZ 35 & Blech-Schachtel

---------------------------------------------------------

lwv Richard Rinker GmbH, Niedersfeld/bei Winterberg Handgranaten und Znder

brb 42, 43 Richard Rinker GmbH, Menden/Iserlohn S.Mi.35 & b, Y-Verteiler, ZDSCHNANZ 29, Nebelhandgranate (Ei)

dbk 42 Richard Rinker GmbH, Werk Neubrandenburg ZZ 35, T.Mi.Z. 35, 42 & 43, BZE39, ZDSCHNANZ 39, Stielhandgranate 24

 

[Tmine35]

Today when I checked my stock of ZDSCHN ANZ 29 to find a specific marking for Sudelmuk I made a very confusing remark; I have one marked RR 40 with first R reversed, but also another one marked RR 40 with normal R's. There also was a similar pair marked RR 37 or RR 38. Now I'm no longer sure when the first R should be reversed or not. Thus, detecting a fake by saying the first R should be reversed is not the whole truth.

 

[sudelmuk]

Sudelmuk has studied manufacturers widely but I'm not sure if he has found a rule when the first R is reversed and when not.

:smile: Unfortunately he hasn't found any rule yet, but the matter seems well worth deeper studies.
We already had a discussion about the 'Richard Rinker-mystery' here some two years ago; because those posts were attached to a nonspecific thread like this, I can't find them again.
Perhaps we should start a special RR-thread to concentrate all knowledge and meanings to one point?

 

[EOD]

HaHa...nice joke.....I hope??? :elefant: What do you think RR markings on the head and stick mean? It's a well known fact this is the Richard Rinker Co......and this company made hundreds of thousands if not millions of M24 stick grenades...also fuzes and other items....

Joke?

Ok, may one detail be added. The RR codes were the same as the P codes on cartridges till 1940.
All know the plain "P" was Polte in Magdeburg (one of the largest cartridge manufacturers in Germany), then a "P+number" was a totally different facility without relation to Polte since the number was a code.
Same goes for "RR" which is Richard Rinker. "RR+number" was then a totally different factory and no subcontractor or subsidiary.

Now you can keep on laughing.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Today when I checked my stock of ZDSCHN ANZ 29 to find a specific marking for Sudelmuk I made a very confusing remark; I have one marked RR 40 with first R reversed, but also another one marked RR 40 with normal R's. There also was a similar pair marked RR 37 or RR 38. Now I'm no longer sure when the first R should be reversed or not. Thus, detecting a fake by saying the first R should be reversed is not the whole truth.

:shot: :laugh: ......... I agree Reino, detecting fakes just by knowing the reversed R's time period is not all the truth...... and by what you now say, there seems to be no specific time period of an "across the board change" for ALL makers to stamp reversed or regular direction R's on items, it seems more likely the direction stamping of the R's was maybe just a manufacturer-subcontractor difference? ... anyway the only fake items marked RR that I'm aware of are M24 grenades, which to a trained eye can be easily spotted as fakes... with or without Rinker stamps. The font of R stamps is important also. And even the best fakers cannot truly fake 70 or so years of true age.....
Do you know of any other fake RR marked items?

:smile: Unfortunately he hasn't found any rule yet, but the matter seems well worth deeper studies.
We already had a discussion about the 'Richard Rinker-mystery' here some two years ago; because those posts were attached to a nonspecific thread like this, I can't find them again.
Perhaps we should start a special RR-thread to concentrate all knowledge and meanings to one point?

Hello He .... Very good idea to have a special RR thread with all 'Richard Rinker-mystery' information in one place..... I know well Peter what you mention about "posts attached to a nonspecific threads".....it's very frustrating when we know we have seen important info pertaining to a discussion in a past thread......but now where is it??
:banghead:

 

[EOD]

.... we have seen important info pertaining to a discussion in a past thread......but now where is it??
:banghead:

Just one posting above your's.

 

[EOD]

When finished laughing read this:

http://www.amazon.de/Zahlencode-System-Heeres-1925-1940/dp/3935210191

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Originally Posted by Kilroy was Here
HaHa...nice joke.....I hope??? :elefant: What do you think RR markings on the head and stick mean? It's a well known fact this is the Richard Rinker Co......and this company made hundreds of thousands if not millions of M24 stick grenades...also fuzes and other items....

Originally Posted by EOD

Joke? yes EOD....J..O..K..E...and it was said in jest, but seems possible you've taken my humor a bit personally??

Ok, may one detail be added. The RR codes were the same as the P codes on cartridges till 1940. ??? Richard Rinker codes were the same as "P" Polte cartridges codes until 1940?? Please expand on this subject, Myself and probably many others would like to learn more about this...
All know the plain "P" was Polte in Magdeburg (one of the largest cartridge manufacturers in Germany), then a "P+number" was a totally different facility without relation to Polte since the number was a code.
Same goes for "RR" which is Richard Rinker. "RR+number" was then a totally different factory and no subcontractor or subsidiary. I disagree, as far as ordnance..meaning grenades, mines, fuzes etc. I believe Richard Rinker had many sub-contractors or subsidiaries all over Germany in the years 1935-1940 as evidenced by the Rinker list my friend was kind enough to provide and allow me to post, and also what Reino mentioned he's seen with his own eyes.

Now you can keep on laughing.

OK, no problem I'll keep laughing,.......... :laugh: it's good for the soul, you should try it sometime


Maybe you could explain to me since are extremely knowledgeable about all things ordnance, why you would say what you posted below (in response to my post about Rinker markings not being right)

Originally Posted by EOD
Mainly because this is no Richard Rinker logo.

if you saw the photos of the grenade in Tomek's post #1 and made the statement above, it seemed to me you did not know that an RR+number+date marking on an M24 grenade meant that it's a Richard Rinker grenade made by one of their many sub contractors... You posted that reply with a quote from my post, in essence saying I was incorrect, which I wasn't.....Here's a little news for you in case you don't know, even when an M24 grenade is marked with RR+number+date...to grenade collectors, the grenade is referenced as, and still called a Richard Rinker grenade.

If we back up a take a look at what this thread was about ...it's about an M24 stick grenade that member Tomek wanted opinions about. His photos in post #1 clearly shows RR markings on both the Head and Handle which signifies a Richard Rinker grenade...(even though that one's a fake)

Here's the posts I copied and put all in one place to easily see what was said.....

My first reply to the thread.....

Originally Posted by Kilroy was here
I saw this one on egun also Tomek. 199 euro. I agree what has been said. Richard Rinker markings on can are not right, and it's a fantasy label. If it was 20 euro I would buy it just to have an interesting example of a fake grenade.

your reply to my post....

Originally Posted by Kilroy was here

Richard Rinker markings on can are not right

Originally Posted by EOD
Mainly because this is no Richard Rinker logo (incorrect)

My reply to your above (incorrect) reply......

Originally Posted by Kilroy was here
HaHa...nice joke.....I hope??? :elefant: What do you think the RR markings on the head and stick mean? It's a well known fact this is the Richard Rinker Co....and this company made hundreds of thousands if not millions of M24 stick grenades...also fuzes and other items....
You will also see the RR markings back to back....in other words with one R on the left backwards facing...

An now your reply below to my post above

Originally Posted by EOD

Joke?
Ok, may one detail be added. The RR codes were the same as the P codes on cartridges till 1940.
All know the plain "P" was Polte in Magdeburg (one of the largest cartridge manufacturers in Germany), then a "P+number" was a totally different facility without relation to Polte since the number was a code.
Same goes for "RR" which is Richard Rinker. "RR+number" was then a totally different factory and no subcontractor or subsidiary.

Now you can keep on laughing.

So...it seems you are saying that RR+number (+date) marked grenades are in fact "NOT" Rinker grenades?... because they're made in different cities, by different companies, and NOT sub-contractors? because they're "TOTALLY DIFFERENT FACTORIES"?..... thus these M24's shouldn't be called Rinker grenades by collectors, even though they have RR markings?
If that's what you meant, then what would you suggest collectors to call these grenades now?
Maybe something like this for example?.......

"I have just added to my collection, or I have for sale from my collection a very nice"..........
RR 564 1939 Wilhelm von Hagen Wwe. Metallwarenfabrik, Iserlohn Stielhandgranate 24

or

"I have in my collection a very nice near mint condition".............
RR 801 1940 "Nirona"-Werke Nier & Ehmer, Auto-und Fahrrad-Zubehr, Beierfeld bei Schwarzenberg M24 grenade

If so, then this really will keep me laughing :laugh:

 

[dano1917]

I really want to jump in on this one, but alcohol and valor do not mix. With that said, the can looks good at least under the obvious additions, the stick on the other hand looks far too good to be old. Keep in mind that my knowledge on WWII sticks is dodgy at best, I woulda walked away from this one

 

[EOD]

Kilroy, you are repeating the same error again and again. 5 people being wrong does not turn it into truth and the herd instinct does not always work out well (just gives misslead self confidence). Seems the old plan of confusing outside observers is still working.

My very 1st statement on Rinker: RR+number is not Richard Rinker. This is all I said and this is what I stick with. Calling it a RR-subsidiary is still wrong and will not make it Richard Rinker even if you quote 50 more people saying it.

As said before. The Versailes treaty allowed Germany only to have certain (and few) manufacturers of ordnance. These were prescribed in the treaty. Some ammunition/arms manufacturers were for example:
Polte, Magdeburg (small arms cartridges and artillery cases) coded "P".
Rheinmetall, Smmerda (fuzes and priming screws) coded "RhS".
Wasag, Reinsdorf (explosives and propellants) coded "Rdf".
Gelsenkirchener Bergwerks A.G., Bochum (projectile bodies) coded "DL".
Simson & Co, Suhl (small arms) coded "S".
Richard Rinker, Menden (grenades and grenade fuzes, later also mines) coded "RR".

To bypass the Versailes treaty Germany of course employed many more manufacturers but had to keep it secret. For that reason the factories involved had to use the "allowed" factory abbreviations and added their own code number since other manufacturer marks would have blown that whole plan. The best known and documented for ammunition is Polte and the P-codes, for small arms it is Suhl and the S-codes etc, etc.
The same goes for the RR-codes and others. Many of these are known to a broad group of collectors.

Your mistake here is that you take the single facilities using the RR+number as a subsidiary instead of a sole and unrelated company. or will you say now that the P-codes are all Polte subsidiaries? Please do not if you fear laughter of the whole ammo community.

Again, read that book mentioned above. It is written by people who are much more knowledgeable than you and me and they rely on official documents. Or if not you certainly can bring an official document that will state on the subsidiaries of RR you are talking about - hardly that will happen.

I did my best to explain this now, take it or leave it.

 

[Tmine35]

After studying this in details and reading a couple of books ( which I should have done in the first place ) I agree what EOD says. I checked several items I have in collection by codes ( both numbers and later letters ), cities mentioned in box labels and WaA numbers and they all match. So, in fact there is no mystery at all. The codes used for camoflage at that time did their job very well - they still today mix up our heads:tinysmile_cry_t:.

A theoretical and less important question is that were these few "allowed" companies main contractors to the Army and subcontracted from the other companies, or did each company supply direct to the Army. At least each small company seems to have had it's own WaA-inspector.

About RR-codes, some companies used reversed R and some not. Compiling a list of those could help to detect if a "wrong" R is used in a fake. However there are so many alternatives as can be seen in Sudelmuk's list that it must be a very stupid fake maker to mistake here.
Outside this subject I checked also several artillery fuzes marked with Rh.S. and number - they can be identified as well.