Small sphere inside...

[US-Subs]

I saw a practice one on the rifle grenade attachment go for over $900 on E-Bay 6-7 years ago, but of course don't ever mistake what you pay for what it is worth....

I've got untold thousands in a collection my wife figures is worth about $200 in scrap metal....

 

[paul the grenade]

They are not that expensive to buy.
Heres one that was on specialist auctions in august for 65.
http://www.specialistauctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=1385438
A bargain.
Cheers, Paul.

 

[Argus]

First post, so hello all

For a weaponised Superball see the Rhodesian Air Force's Alpha bomb.

A 4" steel sphere full of HE with a stiff (6G or something) allways fuse given about 1/4 second delay. The 4" sphere was wrapped in a 6" sphere, the interval filled with superballs. They would skip/bounce and detonate at about 6'.

Curiously the interplay between balls and the two steel skins had a sort of shaped charge effect that cut the casings into discs.

Apparently quite effective but of limited application

See 'The Winds of Destruction' by Peter J. H. Petter-Bowyer

shane

 

[US-Subs]

Argus,
I don't know what Mr. Petter-Bowyer's background is, and I haven't read his book, but there is always a lot of misunderstanding about many submunitions, and this could possibly be some more.

Rhodesia didn't have much of a weapons development program, but South Africa did. I've handled some SA pieces similar to what you describe, and also have seen and photographed the dispenser. At least for the pieces that I am familiar with, they consist of a steel sphere, internally fuzed, which is about 100mm in diameter. The outside is wrapped in a rubberized sort of plastic, which could be related to this story. The ones I've seen most often are a green color, somewhat brighter than forest green. I'll dig into my files tonight and see if I can find some photos and maybe tech info, but if you/anyone has other hard tech info I'd love to see it.

 

[V40]

Paul the Grenade,

Question, doesn't the "Practice" version go for less than if you were to get a hold of one that was never loaded or inerted?

 

[paul the grenade]

Hi V40.
As with most grenades, a good condition well marked inerted live version will sell for more than a drill or practice version.
Cheers, Paul.

 

[Falcon]

I never realised these grenades were so expensive. As it is not a main area that I collect I won't buy the one off SA.

 

[Argus]

Argus,
I don't know what Mr. Petter-Bowyer's background is, and I haven't read his book, but there is always a lot of misunderstanding about many submunitions, and this could possibly be some more.

Rhodesia didn't have much of a weapons development program, but South Africa did. I've handled some SA pieces similar to what you describe, and also have seen and photographed the dispenser. At least for the pieces that I am familiar with, they consist of a steel sphere, internally fuzed, which is about 100mm in diameter. The outside is wrapped in a rubberized sort of plastic, which could be related to this story. The ones I've seen most often are a green color, somewhat brighter than forest green. I'll dig into my files tonight and see if I can find some photos and maybe tech info, but if you/anyone has other hard tech info I'd love to see it.

PB was a senior RhAF officer and their development guy, he pretty much came up with the Alpha, Golf and several other weapons. The book is an auto-biography, quite well known in its area and I've not seen anyone come forward to question it or the author's authority.

I'd also submit the Rhodies had a very active weapons development program, although it ran on the proverbial shoe string, and much of their work ended up with the South Africans - their V hulled mine protected vehicles for example were the pattern for later South African models. I believe the South Africans also picked up the Alpha Bomb but never took it into widespread service.

The Alpha wasn't really a submunition either, as the dispenser/carrier was a Canberra bomber that just dropped them en-mass from its bomb bay. PB did come up with a 'proper' cluster munition though, that carried flachettes rather than submunitions, 300 odd pounds worth of 6" nails fitted with little plastic fins. IIRC (my copy of the book is half a continent away), the density on target was in the order of 1 nail per square foot. Obviously aimed at 'troops in the open', which is exactly what the Rhodesian's were facing most of the time.

cheers

shane

 

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Cofram;

Nice sectioned views US-Subs. These can also be found in numerous sub-munitions for cluster bombs and artillery projectile payloads.
Regards,
John aka Bart

 

[US-Subs]

Argus,
sorry so slow in responding, ended up busy last night and out of office today.

Here are some photos regarding the S. African piece (rubber ball type). I don't have a fuze in mine, so if anyone has a spare? Its actually a bit larger than I remember it, but you can see the general description is fairly accurate. It's a fairly heavy piece, even empty it's about 2kg. I've also included a scan of the dispenser from one of the US guidebooks, plus three photos of the dispenser as it was found in Al Asad, Iraq.

I'll do a search and see if I can come up with a copy of the book, but in the mean time if you find any tech drawings or photos of any of the pieces I'd love to see them. I try to keep a database on everything I can find regarding different models of submunitions, any new tech data/photos are always welcome and available for those in need.

By the way, I've only got one Australian piece, as I recall its called the Karanga, are you aware of any others?

 

[Argus]

No worries US-Subs, time is hardly pressing.

It looks like the piece you have is what the South Africans evolved from the Rhodie original. Which is new to me, so thanks. IIRC the RhAF painted live ones all over gloss red to ease location of blinds, and inert trials/practice were left in natural metal or primer.

Interesting dispenser, I'm guessing the bomblets came out through those capped holes? I'd love to know why they chose that method rather than using a clam shell or petal type casing.

As far as I know the book is about the best ref there is for the originals. I was actually searching for technical data on the Golf Bomb* when an SA friend put me on to 'Winds of Destruction' as about the first last and only word on the subject in print.

I'm not really a grenade or submunitions man, nor much of a collector either. AFAIK Karanga is a Kiwi (New Zealand) word. It's a Maori welcoming ceremony preformed by the village women, lots of waving hands and swaying hips. So if anything I'd say it was probably an air dispenced AP mine, possibly a bounder intended for a waist high burst

sorry I can't help more

shane

* Golf Bomb - 500lb & 1000lb ANFO filled light case blast bombs. 6mm welded mild steel casing, later 'MK.II' double skinned with chopped 10mm rod frag. 2 Pentolite boosters (nose/tail), electricaly fused, 1m stand off probe.

 

[US-Subs]

Shane,
looking at the SA dispenser and sub, there are no flutes or vanes on the sub. This means no spin, and therefore no mangnus effect, or natural dispersion to keep the subs from hitting as one group, en-mass. Its possible (conjecture) that if the dispenser is released as a unit (or remains with the plane), the rows of tubes could be fired by millisecond delay, which would then give you a linear dispersal pattern along the flight path of the dispenser. A clamshell type dispenser would result in a disperal pattern similar to dumping them from a bucket.

 

[Argus]

Fair enough, and a good point. But I'd argue about the lack of 'natural dispersion' and suggest it might have more to do with the desired degree of separation.

There is aerodynamic separation with un-spun spheres, simple bow wave interference will break up a clump and generate departing vectors (as per a shotgun pattern). It occurs to me that the Rhodesians were dropping theirs in a column (so time separation between first and last) through a turbulent slipstream. Where this South African version is going out into clean air more or less simultaneously from the dispenser. There were also a lot fewer per load so separation for efficient coverage is rather more important.

All in all it looks to me as if the original Golf was a niche item to do a particular job from a particular set of tools, and the South Africans were trying to make a Lion scrotum purse from a Wildebeest's balls. The submunition being a great idea but the application via conventional means is too much of a compromise.

cheers

shane