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top 10 'must-have' grenades for the collector??

as EOD says, what I was getting at was designs that "...represent a technological or design milestone."

although I do see what Mike says to be the "...engineering excellence & aesthetics [of] British WW1 grenades..." - some are almost ornate - could it be said that many of the complex design features of these early (modern) grenades went no further after their use in the trenches showed them to be unsuitable for the rigours of modern warfare?
 
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One of the really RARE ones:
Morner minegrenade (Swedish)
or
Model 1918 stickgrenade (Also swedish)

R18kranu1.jpg

Mills are everywhere,way too common... :)
 
as EOD says, what I was getting at was designs that "...represent a technological or design milestone."

although I do see what Mike says to be the "...engineering excellence & aesthetics [of] British WW1 grenades..." - some are almost ornate - could it be said that many of the complex design features of these early (modern) grenades went no further after their use in the trenches showed them to be unsuitable for the rigours of modern warfare?

Marc . You are quite right . Many British WW1 grenades were absolutely terrible to use [the No19 comes to mind] & were quickly withdrawn . This holds good for just about every major country who produced grenades in WW1 . However , I still think they would easily win the Miss World Grenade Beauty contest ! But as I already stated , I am decidedly biased in my belief . Mike
 
Mike - haha the Miss World Grenade Beauty contest... those British WW1 rod-types look like they belong in a Victorian fireplace companion set :)

I would have definitely thought that the Mills belongs in the list, but the No.5 (as the first) or the No.36M (as the zenith of development with an outstanding service life)? Would it be fair to say the Mills would have a similar importance in hand grenade history as the Ford Model T in that of motor cars; not the first of its kind but the first viable for mass-production and issue? In public consciousness I guess the 'Mills Bomb', 'Pineapple' (US Mk. 2) or 'Stick Grenade' (Stielhandgranate 24) are the designs synonymous with the term 'grenade', likely via their prominence in war films/comics/action man-type toys and these were definitely the first types I was aware of as a kid.
 
From Greek Fire to the modern oxidizer-enhanced thermate grenades, and incendiary gels:
Are we forgetting the common Molotov cocktail?
Many governments developed, and improved upon it, in the hopes of defeating armor. It is still used for modern equipment destruction, and even IED defeat.
Humans have never lost their instinctive fear of fire...........640_molotov-cocktail.jpg
 
Mike - haha the Miss World Grenade Beauty contest... those British WW1 rod-types look like they belong in a Victorian fireplace companion set :)

I would have definitely thought that the Mills belongs in the list, but the No.5 (as the first) or the No.36M (as the zenith of development with an outstanding service life)? Would it be fair to say the Mills would have a similar importance in hand grenade history as the Ford Model T in that of motor cars; not the first of its kind but the first viable for mass-production and issue? In public consciousness I guess the 'Mills Bomb', 'Pineapple' (US Mk. 2) or 'Stick Grenade' (Stielhandgranate 24) are the designs synonymous with the term 'grenade', likely via their prominence in war films/comics/action man-type toys and these were definitely the first types I was aware of as a kid.

I thought this was about finding representative grenades (perhaps for the new collector) in which case Mills grenades qualify but the Mills was not the 'technological or design milestone', the Roland (Belgian), from which the Mills was derived, would hold that honour. A Roland grenade would be hard to find and costly to acquire. I guess you need to determine what were the ten most significant technological or design milestones and fit the appropriate grenade (or maybe fuze) to them.
 
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Roland's grenade itself did not become a significant force in warfare though - it was William Mills' simplified take on its principle that did - hence my Model T analogy (IIRC, 33 million Mills were supplied in the course of WWI) ;)
 
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Roland's grenade itself did not become a significant force in warfare though - it was William Mills' simplified take on its principle that did - hence my Model T analogy (IIRC, 33 million Mills were supplied in the course of WWI) ;)

The Roland grenade did become a significant force in warfare in that, as Bonnex states above, it holds the position as being a 'technological or design milestone', a completely novel breakthrough in the functionality and operation of a hand - and rifle - grenade. Without the Roland there would have been no Mills grenade. William Mills turned out to be the right man in the right place, a good mechanical engineer, who developed the Roland into an effective and safe grenade, but had Captain Roland not been captured by the Germans in August 1914, and had been able to pursue his weapon design himself, it is highly probable that he would have implemented very similar improvements to Mills, and history would talk of the Roland Mechanical Grenade rather than the Mills bomb.

56 million Mills grenades (the No.5 and its rifle grenade variants the No.23 Mks I and II) were made between April 1915 and April 1918, and while this is a significant figure, it was an awful item to mass produce. Reject castings ran at around 30%. It was no Model T. That analogy falls more to the No.23 Mk III or No.36 which was a redesign of the Mills bomb by Francis Gibbons and Frederick Vickery. The Vickery-Gibbons bomb (No.36) is arguably as different to the Mills bomb (No.5) as the Mills is to the Roland, but fundamentally neither the No.5 or No.36 would have come about if it had not been for the inspirational design of that Belgian infantry lieutenant back in 1912.

Incidentally 19 million Nos 23 Mk III and 36 were made from August 1917 to March 1919. Then between 1939 and 1946 British War Office orders to British and Commonwealth (Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, South African and Indian) factories topped 60 million, with additional orders from Australia and India for Pacific and Burma theatre requirements. Ignoring small post war UK production, and millions of copies made elsewhere (Israel, India, Pakistan, Somalia, etc), the Vickery-Gibbons No.36 better fits the Model T analogy.

History is unfair: through the circumstances of his capture Roland has received scant recognition for his major contribution to grenade design; for his aggressive ability to promote himself, Mills attained perhaps too much credit, at the expense of Gibbons and Vickery, and Roland.
 
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1.Roland Grenade.
2.Mills cylindrical prototype
3.Prototype clockwork Mills
4.Mint Centrecast No.5 with pre June 1915 date
5.Mint No.23 Mk II with prototype Hearn plug
6.Mint No 23 Mk III with rod.
7.Mint No 36 M1
8.Mini Mills
9.1920's Indian illegal copy of No.5
10. Somali Mills 36 copy.

At least I've got a few on that list. For the non Mills enthusiast, yes I do have other choices but I'll think about another list later.

Tom

I totally agree with your last paragraph. Well said.

John
 
John,

That is a very nice list but I am embarrassed to say that I do not know the 1920's Indian Illegal Copy and would appreciate a briefing.
 
1.Roland Grenade.
2.Mills cylindrical prototype
3.Prototype clockwork Mills
4.Mint Centrecast No.5 with pre June 1915 date
5.Mint No.23 Mk II with prototype Hearn plug
6.Mint No 23 Mk III with rod.
7.Mint No 36 M1
8.Mini Mills
9.1920's Indian illegal copy of No.5
10. Somali Mills 36 copy.
QUOTE]

il have what he's having :D
 
Dave,

Thanks. Interesting to see a gascheck plate on a No 5 or a No 23. I guess most collectors would dismiss it as a parts mix up, and in most cases they would be right but, as you know, some designations were issued that produced conversions of No 23s to No 36s etc. This was towards the end of the war and I doubt there was much need to do this with UK stocks. However the Indian version of Lists of Changes suggests to me that it might have actually been done in India. The instructions call for the fitting of a plate and gauging using a discharger, if it didn't fit the grenade to be disposed of to the local 'arsenal'.
 
John,

That is a very nice list but I am embarrassed to say that I do not know the 1920's Indian Illegal Copy and would appreciate a briefing.

Hi Norman

A couple of years ago I was researching post WW1 Mills production and found that the Mills was being made illegally by Bengali Revolutionaries in the early 1920's. The grenades were said to 'closely resemble' the Mills Bomb (I assume the No 5). The one Dave has found may well be one but as India made training grenades and maybe live ones too, that could be an official version.

John
 
Hi Norman

A couple of years ago I was researching post WW1 Mills production and found that the Mills was being made illegally by Bengali Revolutionaries in the early 1920's. The grenades were said to 'closely resemble' the Mills Bomb (I assume the No 5). The one Dave has found may well be one but as India made training grenades and maybe live ones too, that could be an official version.

John


Thanks John. I appreciate the information. Still lots to learn.
 
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