Hello All,Can someone tell me if Rudge Whitworth h/stamps normally seem to be very lightly struck.If so,I'm thinking that this might be a result of the different case head design?
Regards Chris.
Regards Chris.
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WW1 Rudge Whitworth.303 h/stamps.
- Thread starter christhurston
- Start date
Rudge Whitworth headstamps
Hi Chris,
Have just looked at the Rudge Whitworth rounds I have, and although a few have lightly struck headstamps, others are medium to heavily struck. I would think that they all went through the h/s machine the same way as at any other manufacturer, and depth and clarity of the markings would depend on the newness of the bunter, and the force of the "strike" delivered.
R.
Hi Chris,
Have just looked at the Rudge Whitworth rounds I have, and although a few have lightly struck headstamps, others are medium to heavily struck. I would think that they all went through the h/s machine the same way as at any other manufacturer, and depth and clarity of the markings would depend on the newness of the bunter, and the force of the "strike" delivered.
R.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
RW
I checked mine also and they seem to have the normal variations in headstamp strike. I do not think there was anything different about their manufacture.
I have R16W, R17W, R18W and RW18 ball, plus an R17W with an inverted "VII". The latter is loaded as ball, but why the inverted headstamp? 1917 is too late I think for it to have been a disguised RL tracer case.
I also have an R16W Buckingham Mark II.
I would also be interested to know if there is any significance to the different RW18 headstamp. Loaded elsewhere? Other manufacturer's components?
Regards
TonyE
I checked mine also and they seem to have the normal variations in headstamp strike. I do not think there was anything different about their manufacture.
I have R16W, R17W, R18W and RW18 ball, plus an R17W with an inverted "VII". The latter is loaded as ball, but why the inverted headstamp? 1917 is too late I think for it to have been a disguised RL tracer case.
I also have an R16W Buckingham Mark II.
I would also be interested to know if there is any significance to the different RW18 headstamp. Loaded elsewhere? Other manufacturer's components?
Regards
TonyE
Many thanks R,It does now seem that my first example from this maker could be better,a good lens is needed to read the stamp,which is a bit disappointing.I did wonder if this was often the case with these particular rounds as the stamp is in the groove pressed into the case head,but it seems that doesn't make any difference.Hopefully,the next one that I get will be a bit better!
Regards Chris.
Regards Chris.
Hello Tony,my one and only RW round (with the aid of my lens)is stamped R16W II ,the others that I have from this period are all VII or VIIZ,would this round have been described as Ball,Cordite,Mark II ?
Regards Chris.
Regards Chris.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
RW
Hi Chris
No, you have a Ball Mark VII, it is just that it is afaint stamp so it looks like "II". Rudge Whitworth only ever made ammunition during the war, and then only with Ball Mark VII cases, even if some were actually loaded as incendiaries.
Rudge were an unusual situation, as they had no experience making ammunition before the war, yet were quite successful. it was thought that the learming curve was too steep for non ammunition companies to go into war production, but that was proved wrong. A bit like Crompto Parkinson in WW2.
Incidently, the last ball Mark II was made in 1905.
Regards
TonyE
Hi Chris
No, you have a Ball Mark VII, it is just that it is afaint stamp so it looks like "II". Rudge Whitworth only ever made ammunition during the war, and then only with Ball Mark VII cases, even if some were actually loaded as incendiaries.
Rudge were an unusual situation, as they had no experience making ammunition before the war, yet were quite successful. it was thought that the learming curve was too steep for non ammunition companies to go into war production, but that was proved wrong. A bit like Crompto Parkinson in WW2.
Incidently, the last ball Mark II was made in 1905.
Regards
TonyE
WW1 Rudge Whityworth 303 headstamps
As a collector of 303 headstamps I checked what RW hstps I have. They are all Ball, R.W.15 Vll, R.16.W. VII (all serifs), R 16 W. Vll, R 16 W. VII (serif VII), R 17 W Vll, R 17 W VII (serif VII) and R 18. W VII (serif VII). Two of the early ones have an almost concave face on the head, probably a manufacturing fault.
It intrigues me regarding the dots and use of the serif VII which appear on most WW! ammunition. I presume it was to identify lot numbers, or as with RL to identify the factory or perhaps some manufacturing differing from normal or was it just to give future cartridge collectors something different to look for. Incidently, has anyone seen or have RW packaging of which they may like to show a scan.
Another cartridge I have which I believe is a scarce hstp is C.19.F3 VII.Z.
As a matter of interest, here in Australia in collecting circles, there seems to be a lot of C.17.F3, G.17.F3 and C.18.F3, G.18.F3 all VIIZ although clean looking,the powder is either wet or dried to a grey dust. From what I have heard, prior to the changeover to 7.62 from 303 for target shooting in the 60's a lot of WW1 ammunition was unearthed for use with deplorable results so this could be the reason why it is still around. When I first started rifle shooting we used mainly MF from 1952 - 59 and RG and GB 1949-56.
Hope that's not too much trivia. Les
As a collector of 303 headstamps I checked what RW hstps I have. They are all Ball, R.W.15 Vll, R.16.W. VII (all serifs), R 16 W. Vll, R 16 W. VII (serif VII), R 17 W Vll, R 17 W VII (serif VII) and R 18. W VII (serif VII). Two of the early ones have an almost concave face on the head, probably a manufacturing fault.
It intrigues me regarding the dots and use of the serif VII which appear on most WW! ammunition. I presume it was to identify lot numbers, or as with RL to identify the factory or perhaps some manufacturing differing from normal or was it just to give future cartridge collectors something different to look for. Incidently, has anyone seen or have RW packaging of which they may like to show a scan.
Another cartridge I have which I believe is a scarce hstp is C.19.F3 VII.Z.
As a matter of interest, here in Australia in collecting circles, there seems to be a lot of C.17.F3, G.17.F3 and C.18.F3, G.18.F3 all VIIZ although clean looking,the powder is either wet or dried to a grey dust. From what I have heard, prior to the changeover to 7.62 from 303 for target shooting in the 60's a lot of WW1 ammunition was unearthed for use with deplorable results so this could be the reason why it is still around. When I first started rifle shooting we used mainly MF from 1952 - 59 and RG and GB 1949-56.
Hope that's not too much trivia. Les
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Headstamp styles
Whilst it is certainly true that changes were made to the format of some headstamps to indicate production differences, for eaxmple "R^L 16" and "R16L" to indicate different cartridge factories within the Woolwich complex, I think most of the minor differences simply indicate different bunters.
I think a serif or non-serif "VII" is probably no more than different preferences of whoever made the bunter, as are periods between the letters. I have not come across any official references to these minor differences in style.
Similarly with the headstamps of the Government cartridge Factories. The first character of some are clearly "C" and others equally clearly "G", It is something that has not been resolved to date. I suspect they should all be "G" for "Government Factory", as the term "Cartridge Factory" would result in confusion with the similarly named production lines at Woolwich.
Your "C.19.F.3" is indeed scarce, and I would very much like one myself. I am also always on the lookout for a VIIG tracer load from the GCF, as i know they exist!
Regards
TonyE
Whilst it is certainly true that changes were made to the format of some headstamps to indicate production differences, for eaxmple "R^L 16" and "R16L" to indicate different cartridge factories within the Woolwich complex, I think most of the minor differences simply indicate different bunters.
I think a serif or non-serif "VII" is probably no more than different preferences of whoever made the bunter, as are periods between the letters. I have not come across any official references to these minor differences in style.
Similarly with the headstamps of the Government cartridge Factories. The first character of some are clearly "C" and others equally clearly "G", It is something that has not been resolved to date. I suspect they should all be "G" for "Government Factory", as the term "Cartridge Factory" would result in confusion with the similarly named production lines at Woolwich.
Your "C.19.F.3" is indeed scarce, and I would very much like one myself. I am also always on the lookout for a VIIG tracer load from the GCF, as i know they exist!
Regards
TonyE
I was rather dubious about R16W II,although under magnification the II is quite clear,there is absolutely no sign that there was ever a V preceding it.I'm sure this is a result of the rather poor stamping,and not a deliberate attempt to totally confuse me 94 years later!
I am finding that.303 rounds and the makers thereof is quite the most interesting aspect of ammunition I have so far attempted to delve into.I have spent some time compiling a list of all the manufacturers and the years in which they were in production.
You mentioned Crompton Parkinson,Tony,I have not seen any of those yet,but if my info is correct,they used two h/stamps CP and C-P depending on where the cases were made,or both made and filled?
Another one I've yet to see is the RH of Raleigh Cycles,who I believe took over Rudge Whitworth,and their WW2 production was perhaps a continuation of Rudge's efforts during WW1.All very interesting stuff,I really do think that I should try to get out more!!!
Regards Chris.
You mentioned Crompton Parkinson,Tony,I have not seen any of those yet,but if my info is correct,they used two h/stamps CP and C-P depending on where the cases were made,or both made and filled?
Another one I've yet to see is the RH of Raleigh Cycles,who I believe took over Rudge Whitworth,and their WW2 production was perhaps a continuation of Rudge's efforts during WW1.All very interesting stuff,I really do think that I should try to get out more!!!
Regards Chris.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
.303
Nonsense! A man can aspire to no higher plane than an understanding of the .303 British cartridge. I have only been at it (the study that is) for forty odd years so am gaining a very slight understanding.
You are correct about the difference between the CP and C-P headstamps. The former were made at the Doncaster factory and the latter at Guisley.
You will continue to look in vain for the RH headstamped .303 round. Raleigh Cycles did not make .303 in WW2, only 20mm.
Probably the two hardest manufacturers to find are Ross Rifle Co. (RR.Co) and National Brass & Copper Tube Co., Hastings, New York (H). Both were only active for a short time in WWI.
It took me thirty years to find an "H" headstamp, eventually finding one on the floor of an American friend's gun room. I still do not have an RR.Co., but am hopefully getting one shortly from Canada.
Other wants are a Government Cartridge Factory 3 ball VIIz round dated 1919 and a 1918 dated VIIG tracer form the same factory.
Finally, I presume you have my book on .303 inch headstamps?
Regards
TonyE
Nonsense! A man can aspire to no higher plane than an understanding of the .303 British cartridge. I have only been at it (the study that is) for forty odd years so am gaining a very slight understanding.
You are correct about the difference between the CP and C-P headstamps. The former were made at the Doncaster factory and the latter at Guisley.
You will continue to look in vain for the RH headstamped .303 round. Raleigh Cycles did not make .303 in WW2, only 20mm.
Probably the two hardest manufacturers to find are Ross Rifle Co. (RR.Co) and National Brass & Copper Tube Co., Hastings, New York (H). Both were only active for a short time in WWI.
It took me thirty years to find an "H" headstamp, eventually finding one on the floor of an American friend's gun room. I still do not have an RR.Co., but am hopefully getting one shortly from Canada.
Other wants are a Government Cartridge Factory 3 ball VIIz round dated 1919 and a 1918 dated VIIG tracer form the same factory.
Finally, I presume you have my book on .303 inch headstamps?
Regards
TonyE
I do feel that I'll need very little persuasion to come around to your way of thinking on this subject,Tony,and I'm sure that a copy of your book will go a long way to convince me that I don't really need to get out more after all.
I'll need to put a line through the RH entry on my list,I've been getting a bit of duff info from Google,one source telling me that Raleigh produced Ball,Cordite,Mark VII between 1941 and 1945.
If I can depend on anything I get from Google,Government Cartridge Factory No3 at Blackpole did not start production until late 1918 and ceased in early 1919.I mention this because I recently acquired G.18.F3 VIIZ and the head has had a ding almost completely erasing the lower part of the 8,it almost might have been a 9 !!!
Is your book available from the author himself,or will I need to go to a bookseller?
Regards Chris.
I'll need to put a line through the RH entry on my list,I've been getting a bit of duff info from Google,one source telling me that Raleigh produced Ball,Cordite,Mark VII between 1941 and 1945.
If I can depend on anything I get from Google,Government Cartridge Factory No3 at Blackpole did not start production until late 1918 and ceased in early 1919.I mention this because I recently acquired G.18.F3 VIIZ and the head has had a ding almost completely erasing the lower part of the 8,it almost might have been a 9 !!!
Is your book available from the author himself,or will I need to go to a bookseller?
Regards Chris.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Book etc.
My .303 book is indeed available direct from me, so send me a PM for details.
With regards to the Government Cartridge Factories, GCF3 did not start .303 production until January 1918, but like all four of the GCFs it had been making 7.62 x 54mm for the Russians prior to that.
GCF1 started .303 in April 1918, GCF2 some time in early 1918 (hard to tell when because the production figures were merged with the rest of Royal laboratory), GCF3 in January and GCF4 (Eley) was so far behind that it was closed and never made .303.
I wrote an extensive article on the Government Cartridge Factories for the Journal of the International Ammunition Association last year, so if you would like a copy PM me with your e-mail address.
Regards
TonyE
My .303 book is indeed available direct from me, so send me a PM for details.
With regards to the Government Cartridge Factories, GCF3 did not start .303 production until January 1918, but like all four of the GCFs it had been making 7.62 x 54mm for the Russians prior to that.
GCF1 started .303 in April 1918, GCF2 some time in early 1918 (hard to tell when because the production figures were merged with the rest of Royal laboratory), GCF3 in January and GCF4 (Eley) was so far behind that it was closed and never made .303.
I wrote an extensive article on the Government Cartridge Factories for the Journal of the International Ammunition Association last year, so if you would like a copy PM me with your e-mail address.
Regards
TonyE
Rare .303" headstamps
Hi All,
TonyE and christhurson have been talking a bit in this thread about scarce .303" headstamps, so I am now going to really stir the pot and ask the Forum "which is considered to be the rarest .303 headstamp of all?"
Grenfell & Accles Black-powder Mk II? British Munitions BP Mk.II? Lorenz? Greenwood & Batley BP Mk.I? Explosive R Mk.III? Are these rarer than one made by RRCo of Canada? South African AP? Something else entirely? How about foreign ones? I have been told Ethiopia made .303s, but have never seen one.
I shall be very interested to hear what people think.
Roger.
Hi All,
TonyE and christhurson have been talking a bit in this thread about scarce .303" headstamps, so I am now going to really stir the pot and ask the Forum "which is considered to be the rarest .303 headstamp of all?"
Grenfell & Accles Black-powder Mk II? British Munitions BP Mk.II? Lorenz? Greenwood & Batley BP Mk.I? Explosive R Mk.III? Are these rarer than one made by RRCo of Canada? South African AP? Something else entirely? How about foreign ones? I have been told Ethiopia made .303s, but have never seen one.
I shall be very interested to hear what people think.
Roger.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Rarity
I think all of those you list could be considered rare. In terms of manufacturers (rather than individual Marks of .303) then certainly British Munitions (BM) and Lorenz (L) are right at the top. Ross Rifle Co (RRCo), National Brass (H) and Grefell & Accles (GA) are fairly close behind.
I have a GA BP Mark II, an H.16 VII and have an RRCo. waiting for me in Canada, but need the others.
In terms of individual Marks of .303 inch, then it has to be the Ball Mark III (only one ever available sold for 3,500) and the Incendiary B Mark V. The RIII (or RIII*) probably comes next, although I now have one. Some of the early blanks are nigh on impossible to find as are the RTS and RTT explosive rounds from WWI.
I would also be interested inwhat others think.
Regards
TonyE
Oh, and I saw an Indian Grenade Discharger H Mark 5 the other day (but not available unfortunately)
I think all of those you list could be considered rare. In terms of manufacturers (rather than individual Marks of .303) then certainly British Munitions (BM) and Lorenz (L) are right at the top. Ross Rifle Co (RRCo), National Brass (H) and Grefell & Accles (GA) are fairly close behind.
I have a GA BP Mark II, an H.16 VII and have an RRCo. waiting for me in Canada, but need the others.
In terms of individual Marks of .303 inch, then it has to be the Ball Mark III (only one ever available sold for 3,500) and the Incendiary B Mark V. The RIII (or RIII*) probably comes next, although I now have one. Some of the early blanks are nigh on impossible to find as are the RTS and RTT explosive rounds from WWI.
I would also be interested inwhat others think.
Regards
TonyE
Oh, and I saw an Indian Grenade Discharger H Mark 5 the other day (but not available unfortunately)
peashooter
BOCN Supporter
What about a download section on BOCN so people could upload articles and info for us to share??? I would be very interested in Your article TonyE.
Rich