1-Pdr Mk III

[ydnum303]

Hi all,
Can anybody tell me what projectiles were loaded into the 1-Pounder Mk. III case, other than the HE with the flat brass fuze?
My reason for asking is that I recently acquired a 1916-dated VSM-made case that has a 1-Pdr Pom-Pom type projectile in it. This projectile has the VSM style driving band, and is stamped PA (which I understand is the mark of their Spanish subsidiary), and instead of the more normal brass nose fuze has a flat tip of 8mm diameter, rather reminiscent of the "Sockelflak" type tracer bullet. The projectile is tight in the case, the neck of which shows no obvious distortion or "belling" at the mouth, and the heavy crimps are crisp, and do not seem to have been disturbed.
The primer is struck, and shows signs of having been removed at some time in the past, possibly to remove the propellant.
R.

 

[Gspragge]

Can you show some images

If you have a 1 1/2 Pdr. case with 1 pr. in it it is for the then obsolete 1 1/4 pr. But there were still a few around (at least over here) Other wise I,m not entirely sure what you have, but it dose sound like a circa 1900 projectile in the wrong case.

 

[Tony Williams]

There's a (small) drawing of a pointed AP round next to the usual HE (the overall length is about the same) along with the gun installation, which appears in both R W Clarke's book on British Aircraft Armament and two of mine: 'Rapid Fire', and 'Flying Guns Vol 1, 1914-32'. I don't know its weight.

 

[ydnum303]

Thanks for the info, gentlemen. Can't provide you with any pictures, but the case is just about 70mm long, and the overall length of the round is 137mm. The heavy crimps are 10mm below the case mouth/bottom of the driving band, and are long, with only a 7mm gap between each of the 3 of them.
I have seen the picture/drawing of the 2 rounds in your book, Tony, and the non-HE round seems to come to a sharp point, whereas the one I have has a small flat tip (with a slightly rounded edge, not as sharp as on a Sockelflak).
The part of this projectile above the case mouth is slightly shorter than the normal VSM common shell, and is 12.75mm between the top of the driving band and the centring band, compared to 14.5mm on the common shell. Does this sound like a tracer projectile? And should it be in this case??
R.

 

[Quatermass]

There was a common pointed and incendiary shell for the 1 PR Mk III but the rounds didn't have a centering band as you describe so i'm not sure what you've got.
Its possible that the projectile is a 1 Pr practice?

 

[Gspragge]

I'm thinking

That you have a damaged 1pr. base fused projectile which has had the point filed flat to make it look better. With PA on it there is not else I think it can be. If you have a base fuse in it that is worth more then the projectile. The case is right though if you can find the projectile for it. There was a damaged projectile like this on SA some time ago. It should not be shorter than a regular PD 1Pr. Where did it come from ?

 

[ydnum303]

Practice round?

Hi Gspragge,
On unscrewing the primer, I can see that there is a large lump of steel screwed into the base of the projectile, rather than a brass fuze, and the flat nose looks as if it was made that way (presumably by turning) rather than being filed flat at a later date.
Could this be a practice round of some sort? What is the earliest known date that rounds of any sort were made for this gun? And would Vickers have really loaded these cases with (presumably surplus) projectiles from their Spanish subsidiary?
I found it this weekend at a militaria fair, in amongst some highly polished, highly priced 40mm Mk 4 Bofors cases and assorted "trench arted" cases of various calibres.
R

 

[Burney Davis]

1 pr shell

Is this what you have 303?

BD

 

[Gspragge]

I feel a learning experience about to happen ~

What is that :tinysmile_cry_t2:

Was Spanish made 1 Pr. Penetrating projectile, now with a plug and strange alteration --

 

[Burney Davis]

Give you a hint Gordon, it originally contained phosphorus!:tinysmile_twink_t:

 

[Gspragge]

Bloody hell --

Day TraXXX :tinysmile_cry_t4:


Incendiary !!!!!

 

[Burney Davis]

Not day tracer, incendiary.

BD

 

[Gspragge]

ydnum303

Does yours match the example shown --- we all wait with Baited Breathe :tinysmile_shy_t:

 

[ydnum303]

A match!

Hi all,
Yes, from what I can see of the base of the projectile through the primer hole, mine is exactly the same as the one shown by Burney Davis.
Thanks very much for the help and information, nice to know that I have an incendiary round. Is there no mention of this particular load in any of the official text-books at all?
R.

 

[Gspragge]

The Last Question settled

Thanks for the info, gentlemen. Can't provide you with any pictures, but the case is just about 70mm long, and the overall length of the round is 137mm. The heavy crimps are 10mm below the case mouth/bottom of the driving band, and are long, with only a 7mm gap between each of the 3 of them.
**And should it be in this case??R.

"Thanks for the info, gentlemen. Can't provide you with any pictures, but the case is just about 70mm long, and the overall length of the round is 137mm."



Given the above and a measurement across the nose of 8mm we have a projectile exposure of 67mm above the case. This matches the PD version for the MKlll Gun. Measuring across a regular PA 1Pr. to the point where the width is 8mm also gives the same exposure. If this projectile were meant to be fired from a regular 1 Pr Maxim (37x94r) there would be no need to alter the point. As Maxim feed blocks are designed to a specific length of cartridge due to the way the rounds are caught in the breech block I am now sure this type is specific for the MKlll Gun. 37mm projectiles are so often stuck in any 37mm case that is handy it is hard to believe a rare right one being found in the correct case but here we have that miracle before us ~