100 mm HE, Skoda / Yugoslavia

[Przemek]

Hi,

I am looking for a photo or good quality drawing [and shell length] of a Yugoslav 100 mm HE shell for Skoda howitzers.
In German nomenclature: 10-cm Sprgr. (Dopp.Z.) 311 (j).
Shell without reducing screw. Thread ~48 mm / for Czech VG SKR and VG CR fuzes.
First of all, it is about the shape of the rear part of the shell - in the US drawing it looks straight cut - different from 100 mm Czech and Polish shells (rounded, for example in the drawings a Czech 10 cm dopp z gr 30 [t]).
The photo from the German manual [a/left] is blurry but shape of the rear part looks like as at drawing, but the ring probably does not have a groove [?].

I also wonder if any other country used this version - a 48 mm thread and a shell without a reduction screw and a rounded back part.

I will be grateful for your help.

Regards,
PM

 

[AKON_]

What you are looking for is ammunition for the export 100mm howitzer vz.28 (jug : M.28)
-export to Yugoslavia
- the Škoda factory designation was: FE.

-Sprgr.- 14,3kg
Dopp-Sprgr. -16kg
Akon

 

[MINENAZ16]

I think this one.
Thanks for the owner of the picture (in my computer, I can't remember where I found it).

 

[Przemek]

Thanks.

I remember this photo, probably from "wk2ammo" - "Greif" collection, /if i good remember/. So it turns out that it also had a rounded back. Perfect.

 

[AKON_]

-2 grenades from the left is Skoda's export to Romania : 10cm Sprgr.38(rum), Drawings 013C1581 (the body is marked "rum", ), New versions were also offered 100mm incendiary grenade (M.43) was also designed (and tested) for Romania. I don't know how far it went. Not in the picture...
-1 grenades from the right is 10 cm Ostrý časovací granát vz.21 ( Škoda before the war-marked red 1924 )
-----
For 8cm vz.30 ammunition , the radius of the rear ogival its R-254mm.
For 10cm vz.30 ammunition, the radius of the rear ogival its R-300mm.
For 10.5cm vz.30 ammunition, the radius of the rear ogival its R-322mm.
Akon .

 

[AKON_]

Re :
10 cm Sprenggranate 38 (rum) - weight 13,65 kg .
10cm A.Z.Gr. 30 (t) -weight 16kg.
10cm Dopp.Z Gr. 30 (t) -weight 16kg.
10cm Dopp.Z.Gr. 21 (t) -weight 16kg.
Akon .

 

[Przemek]

Thanks. Polish models 100 mm wz. 28 and wz. 31 (shells types for French fuzes): R-300 mm.

 

[AKON_]

100 mm wz. 28 -weight 13,940 kg + RYG wz.18 (220g) or 24/31; (alt.) 160g ; RYG vz.17 (395g) ...

 

[AKON_]

Skoda export to Romania: 100mm Md.34 -weight 15kg . (Thread 36x1.5 )


Will someone complete the radius R- of the bottom of this design?
In addition, Skoda exported 100m Md.30 ammunition to Romania....

 

[Irod7]

Just some extra info to complete @AKON_ `s information about Romanian 100mm Skoda shells:


Romanian designation/Skoda designation/weight/fuze

No. 1 / Md.1930 / 14.4 kg / U3
No. 2/ Md. 1934/ 15 kg / U3
No. 3/ Md.1930/ 16 kg / CHZR or U3 or VG-SKR or VG-CR
......
No. 8/ Md. 1943 Costinescu APHE shell / 13,35 kg/ C-8
No. 9 / Md.1938/ 13,65 kg/ U17

For No. 9 the only reference so far is a box label, but since the model year and weight matches I think we can be sure that it`s 10cm Sprgr. 38 (rum) and U17 is one of AZ23v/AZ23Pr/Az1.

The bottom radius is R480.

 

[wingsofwrath]

Can confirm what @Irod7 said, here is my drawing of the bottom of the Romanian Skoda No.2 shell.

However, there is also the afore mentioned 10cm Sprgr. 38 (rum) which has that lower radius 304mm according to this plan:

 

[Przemek]

I wonder if there is an error in the American drawing (but rather, this is a very simplified drawing.). Shouldn't there be a screw with a brass cover (Yugoslav version of the projectile) there?

The image shows a comparison of the drawings and photos of shells (Yugoslav version [?] [shell relic with fragments of the reduction - steel ring + brass tube - fragments only/destroyed], typical chamber as in steel shells (not cast iron). For comparison one of the Polish models - wz. 28 (for French fuzes))
[inert/shells / old museum exhibits].

ps. 22 cm anti-concrete Skoda /to PL/ - R=400

 

[wingsofwrath]

So, I pondered this question for a bit and reached the conclusion that there were two types of boat-tails to these shells - the Vz.28 and Vz.30 (Romanian No.3) shells had a radius of 300mm with a 6mm fillet and the Vz.34 (Romanian No.2) and the Romanian No.8 had a radius of 480mm with a 3mm fillet at the bottom.

I constructed the shape of the Romanian No.3 shell (Czech Vz.30) and it matches exactly with the American drawing you shared (by the way, the "83mm" on the bottom is the place where the main radius would meet the flat bottom if the 6mm fillet did not exist).
Also, the German plan of the Sprgr.38 (rum) actually shows a 300mm radius with the last digit smudged so it looks like a four - once you're looking at it thinking it might be a zero it becomes obvious, so we can conclude it also had the same type of bottom.

Another difference between the two types of shell is the rotating band - the earlier version (Vz.30 /Nr.3) had a 16mm one with a groove and a flat bottom, while the later one (Vz.34/Nr.2) was 18mm tall with a groove and vertically symmetrical. The diameters of both rotating bands and bodies of the shells are identical.
And since in the drawing of the Sprgr 311 (j) we can see the latter type and the boat-tail radius looks less curved, it must mean it has the same lower profile as the Vz.34, so a 480mm radius with a 3mm fillet.

 

[Przemek]

Interesting. Shell from the photo have a 18 mm ring / vertically symmetrical.
On the drawing - standard 16 mm ring from wz. 28 and wz. 31.

 

[AKON_]

Hi Premek Answer :
,,Czy nie powinna być śruba z mosiężną pokrywą (Yugoslav wersja pocisku)? ,,

In your picture in position 1 (my no. 1), according to what I know, there is no export version for Yugoslavia with Czech fuse. A pre-war design for a German fuse is certainly out of the question... If it is a body for a double fuse, the reduction was always made of steel at Skoda, not brass, but the reduction for a double f. is handled differently.Rather, it is a version for German f. according to the German (Mudlochbuchse) , see the slots of position 2, 3 (my numbers )Also about the f. in the color picture: it is an offer for a German customer and the specific export versions differed according to the customer's wishes and sometimes quite significantly.

 

[AKON_]

... If it works out (in the future), I will provide a decent drawing of the 100mm export version to Yugoslavia ... or at least the exact number of the drawing. Preferably with the text of the contract ... .
ps. 22 cm A.Z. Granat M.40 - R=400 .

 

[AKON_]

Just some extra info to complete @AKON_ `s information about Romanian 100mm Skoda shells:


Romanian designation/Skoda designation/weight/fuze

No. 1 / Md.1930 / 14.4 kg / U3
No. 2/ Md. 1934/ 15 kg / U3
No. 3/ Md.1930/ 16 kg / CHZR or U3 or VG-SKR or VG-CR
......
No. 8/ Md. 1943 Costinescu APHE shell / 13,35 kg/ C-8
No. 9 / Md.1938/ 13,65 kg/ U17

For No. 9 the only reference so far is a box label, but since the model year and weight matches I think we can be sure that it`s 10cm Sprgr. 38 (rum) and U17 is one of AZ23v/AZ23Pr/Az1.

The bottom radius is R480.

... Uzina Emil Costinescu ..http://www.mefin.ro/background_r.htm

 

[Irod7]

... Uzina Emil Costinescu ..http://www.mefin.ro/background_r.htm

Mefin is another company from the communist era that was built on the site of the old Costinescu factory. Not much of the original buildings are still in place, and they did not produce any ammunition after the company was nationalized in 1948. If you are interested in Costinescu ammunition produced during ww2 and would like to read more, you can check my dissertation paper in the following link. It is in Romanian, but any browser nowadays can help with translation. I think the most interesting for you will be the drawings starting at pages 47, made by @wingsofwrath . The drawing with the 100mm Nr. 8 shell is at page 75.

https://www.academia.edu/104214507/Proiectile_antitanc_de_concepție_și_producție_românescă_fabricate_la_uzina_Emil_Costinescu

PS This paper focuses only on ammunition designed and produced by Costinescu. The factory also produced other ammunition during the ww2 era (75mm Md.1917, 100mm Skoda No.2, 47mm Bohler/Breda, 25mm Hotchkiss).

 

[AKON_]

@Irod7 /wingsofwrath

Nice work ​

. I also appreciate accurate citations of sources, as is standard for this type of work. Thanks
--------------------
Among other things, I was interested in the C-8 fuse, is it someone's license? or own Romanian design?
Regarding ammunition in general: Škoda customers did not like to order anti-tank ammunition in caliber 7,5 cm and larger because they argued that they were 37-47mm PT guns. But during the war, ammunition was exported in this version as well. The German army noted this change in regulations and ballistic tables.I know Škoda offered a bottom fuse and anti-tank shell 75-100 mm also for export.
Akon

 

[Irod7]

@Irod7 /wingsofwrath

Nice work ​

. I also appreciate accurate citations of sources, as is standard for this type of work. Thanks
--------------------
Among other things, I was interested in the C-8 fuse, is it someone's license? or own Romanian design?

Thank you!

Regarding the series of base fuzes, they are all derived from the Skoda PD-28, with a few modifications.
C-6 = direct clone of PD-28 for 47mm shells (Skoda licence)
C-8 = identical mechanism as C-6 but with different body shape, with a new external thread to fit into the base plug for the shell and with a different strength of internal spring. This was used for 75mm FF and 1897, 75mm Vickers, 76,2mm RF, 100mm Skoda
C-11 = identical mechanism as C-6 but with a different body shape, with a new external thread to fit in the base of the new md.1943 DT shells. The body is much longer and has a tracer cavity as well. Again, the strength of the internal spring is different. This was used in shells for the 75mm Reșița md.1943 antitank gun (and also in 75mm Vickers).

PS sorry Przemek for hijacking the thread with Romanian subjects