Was just reading some after action reports on SEAL Tm2 teams that were apart of MACVSOG, on several operatons in Cambodia and Laos, there were references to a 12 gas silent Shotshell - mostly they didn't like it. Does anyone have info on this round they can share?
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12 ga Silent Shotshell
- Thread starter weberoed
- Start date
Mike,
Interesting. I'd like to read what they had to say about it, negative or positive. I've never read anything from anyone who actually tested them in the field.
I presume we are discussing the AAI silent 12ga. round like the ones below. Here's a link to a photo of the data card from a previous gun show display that's large enough to read:
http://photos.imageevent.com/ricklarson/gunshowdisplays/PICT0076.JPG
Rick
Interesting. I'd like to read what they had to say about it, negative or positive. I've never read anything from anyone who actually tested them in the field.
I presume we are discussing the AAI silent 12ga. round like the ones below. Here's a link to a photo of the data card from a previous gun show display that's large enough to read:
http://photos.imageevent.com/ricklarson/gunshowdisplays/PICT0076.JPG
Rick
Go to the Texas Tech site for the Vietnam war, search for Command History Seal Team1 1966, 67 ans 68.
The basic results were as I read them no pentatration and not as silent as presented. There were 4 different entries all form SEAL Team one temas assigned to MAVCSOG in Laos, except for one in Cambodia. I'll try to post the pages shortly
The basic results were as I read them no pentatration and not as silent as presented. There were 4 different entries all form SEAL Team one temas assigned to MAVCSOG in Laos, except for one in Cambodia. I'll try to post the pages shortly
Thank you Rick,
Some great info there, i was totaly unaware that this round had even existed, a really interesting concept and i wonder if it was taken any futher in the following years. And thank you to you Weberoed for bringing it up.
Best regards Weasel.
Some great info there, i was totaly unaware that this round had even existed, a really interesting concept and i wonder if it was taken any futher in the following years. And thank you to you Weberoed for bringing it up.
Best regards Weasel.
From everything I can tell it didn't last much past (if even then) 1968. The 1968 edition of the Swimmer Weapons System Handbook does not menttion it, yet does present the 2 versions of the 40mm (triple shot and pump action) neither of which lasted past 1969 in evaluation. So I think it like the Aerojet, just died
V40
Well-Known Member
Mike,
I looked back at your post and didn't think right to go on and give you the info that you needed for such a round. Like I stated above, this book gave me the only bare minimums which I am sure you already know. I also believe you already have this book on hand or Dockery's other book. Sorry bout that.
I was also under the impression that the only SEAL members that were reassigned to SOG was Lt. Tom Norris and Barry Enoch. I will definately have to hit the Univerity of Texas (?) for more info?
Also, thanks Rick again for bringing that picture along to help. The guy that owns that table, went to great lengths for that collection.
I looked back at your post and didn't think right to go on and give you the info that you needed for such a round. Like I stated above, this book gave me the only bare minimums which I am sure you already know. I also believe you already have this book on hand or Dockery's other book. Sorry bout that.
I was also under the impression that the only SEAL members that were reassigned to SOG was Lt. Tom Norris and Barry Enoch. I will definately have to hit the Univerity of Texas (?) for more info?
Also, thanks Rick again for bringing that picture along to help. The guy that owns that table, went to great lengths for that collection.
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THE Navy SEAL and UDT efforts to the MACVSOG program were fairly entensive. For the most part they ran ops out of northwestern IV Corp and southwestern III Corp into Cambodia and southeastern Laos. Most of these ops were not recon rather dircet actions, boobytrapping , enemy POW snatches, etc. The largest efforts were their ops into North Vietnam limited to the south east coastal line. But if you get ahold of copies of SEAL Teams 1 and 2, and UDT11,13,15 Command Histories, you'll get a good read on their operations. Many of these docs can be found in (sorry gave wrong Teas Univ) Texas TEch Vietnam library (but it is not an easy site to work through). But you can also find great references not only to this but to alot of ordnacne info at the Public STINET web site.
Lt Norris's actions have been well documetned for many years now, as have some of Enoch's. But the SEALs operations within SOG were also well known, though not as much as a recon element as the Army's SOG elements. They still brought a lot to the table, especialy the higher tech tools and toys through out the war.
Should be getting more info on the 12 ga silent round, later today. If I can post pdf to this thread I'll put a couple pages or so on
Lt Norris's actions have been well documetned for many years now, as have some of Enoch's. But the SEALs operations within SOG were also well known, though not as much as a recon element as the Army's SOG elements. They still brought a lot to the table, especialy the higher tech tools and toys through out the war.
Should be getting more info on the 12 ga silent round, later today. If I can post pdf to this thread I'll put a couple pages or so on
Friend just sent this to me, do not know the document he got the info from, but in past his information has been extremely credible and correct.
12 Gauge Silent Shotshell
During Vietnam several different 12 ga shotshells were developed for the SEAL/UDT efforts. One was a CS round (which is pretty common in law enforcement now), another a aerial flare. This round was much brighter than a tracer round. The 12 ga cart launched a aluminum capsule loaded with a pyrotechnic mix. Not only was it a good single device but was also a small incendiary projectile.
But the round in question was the 12 ga Silent Shotshell. The SEALs wanted more suppressed weapons and they liked the 12 ga shotgun. China Lake NOL actually started out trying to make a suppressed shotgun, but just could make it work. So in 1967 a requirement for a low signature shotshell (also reduced flash) that could be loaded, fired and ejected from a standard 12 ga shotgun went out. The SEALS would accept a shorter range cart, but wanted good hit probability and the lethality of a shotgun.
AAI in Baltimore, Maryland picked up the contract. They already had a patented design and applied it to this project. The telecartridge was a method of producing mechanical action though the use of burning propellant. The cartridge used the expanding metal capsule to produce the mechanical action by retaining the expanding gases of the propellant. This action of retaining the hot gases eliminated most of the noise and flash. The use of the expanding metal capsule of the system then drove a plastic pusher piston. The piston drove the carts 12 #4 buckshot to a muzzle velocity of 450ft/sec. As stated above the gases were retained and for the most part all that was heard was the click of the firing pin.
The cart body was made of steel.
The test rounds produced first fired at 550 ft/sec. But this was reduced to the final 450 ft/sec. This change did reduce the stopping power, but also help stop a problem with the telecartridge rupturing.
Various reports from the field suggested that it did not have the power or lethality that was wanted. But the final report on the shotshell said the round was no longer produced because of its cost, when compared to other suppressed weapons systems.
In the end 2500 cartridges were loaded. Somewhere around 20 of them still exist in various collections.
12 Gauge Silent Shotshell
During Vietnam several different 12 ga shotshells were developed for the SEAL/UDT efforts. One was a CS round (which is pretty common in law enforcement now), another a aerial flare. This round was much brighter than a tracer round. The 12 ga cart launched a aluminum capsule loaded with a pyrotechnic mix. Not only was it a good single device but was also a small incendiary projectile.
But the round in question was the 12 ga Silent Shotshell. The SEALs wanted more suppressed weapons and they liked the 12 ga shotgun. China Lake NOL actually started out trying to make a suppressed shotgun, but just could make it work. So in 1967 a requirement for a low signature shotshell (also reduced flash) that could be loaded, fired and ejected from a standard 12 ga shotgun went out. The SEALS would accept a shorter range cart, but wanted good hit probability and the lethality of a shotgun.
AAI in Baltimore, Maryland picked up the contract. They already had a patented design and applied it to this project. The telecartridge was a method of producing mechanical action though the use of burning propellant. The cartridge used the expanding metal capsule to produce the mechanical action by retaining the expanding gases of the propellant. This action of retaining the hot gases eliminated most of the noise and flash. The use of the expanding metal capsule of the system then drove a plastic pusher piston. The piston drove the carts 12 #4 buckshot to a muzzle velocity of 450ft/sec. As stated above the gases were retained and for the most part all that was heard was the click of the firing pin.
The cart body was made of steel.
The test rounds produced first fired at 550 ft/sec. But this was reduced to the final 450 ft/sec. This change did reduce the stopping power, but also help stop a problem with the telecartridge rupturing.
Various reports from the field suggested that it did not have the power or lethality that was wanted. But the final report on the shotshell said the round was no longer produced because of its cost, when compared to other suppressed weapons systems.
In the end 2500 cartridges were loaded. Somewhere around 20 of them still exist in various collections.
