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15cm unknown cartridge case

C

charley777

Well-Known Member
Hello all
Can anyone help with information on this case?
I have it listed as for a Schneider howitzer used by Russia.
However it is made in Germany in 1916 by Polte ....
Perhaps someone can tell us for what gun(s) this was made?
And indeed whether the Schneider/Russia info is true.
Observations, speculations, objections, etc. all welcome.
Thanks very much

155x211R x167

20201124_114512.jpg20201124_114341.jpg
 
...thought you'll recognize the shape of the holes for the primer key. These or the complete primer are of Russian type. The german primers have half round holes only, the russians are half round with a small straight part - hard to describe for me but visible easily if you compare them. I am not sure why my ancestors copied the primer but same was done on German made 76,2x385R cases. Possibly they captured the Russian guns with all the tools belonging to the guns?
 
Oh yes of course ....am being a bit slow here .... suddenly it's obvious.

Further internet research brings me to suggest that this is for the 152mm M1910 Schneider howitzer made for Russia (and also in Russia at Putilov and Perm artillery factories). Guns still in France at outbreak of WW1 were rebarrelled at 155mm standard French calibre.
Used in WW1 and WW2 by Russian Empire, Soviet Union, Finland and Estonia.

No mention of German capture or why they producef ammunition for the gun.

20201125_115846.jpg
 
Hello Charley,

what I have found:

I found a drawing of a german "15 cm Gr. 12 mit russischer Führung" (15 cm Gr. 12 with russian type driving band) in a german archive and also a "15 cm Gr. 14 m. russ. F." mentioned in the text.

In a different correspondence about planning the ammunition production for foreign guns a "russische 15,24 cm Haubitze (Schneider)" is mentioned and also that 12000 15 cm Gr. 14 and 6000 15 cm Gr. 12 per Month should be produced for these howitzers.

The diameter of the driving band of both shells with russian driving band was 157 mm while the shell had only 148,7 mm diameter. This would lead to 3,7 mm "air" in a 152,4 mm barrel which is to much in my opinion. For comparsion the same shell for french 155 mm long guns had a diameter of 154,1 mm so only 0,9 mm "air" in the barrel.

Again another document is mentioning a "russische 15,24 cm Kanone (200 Pud.)" which used the same two shells but a "Reibzündschraube" (friction igniter) is mentioned for this gun so it used no cases.

The last thing I have found is a drawing named "Skizze der Kasten für Hülsenkartuschen der russ. s.F.H. in s.F.H. M.10". Even with German as my native language I don't have the slightest idea about what this "russ. s.F.H. in s.F.H. M.10" should mean. Maybe it's a drawing about the adaption of a box for the russ. s.F.H. to a different howitzer the "s.F.H.M.10". The s.F.H.M.10 sounds much like the Schneider howitzer. Your case could fit into the box. The case meassurements are not given but wall thickneses and length of the box. It calculates to 213,5 mm free length and also base diameter of 167,6 mm are given. I think that's the best track which I have found :)

Sorry I don't have a real proof for it but I think your case is for this Schneider gun as indications are very good. I can look into the russian documents an other day (my day is over for now :) )

Regards, Stefan
 
Last edited:
Thanks very much for your ongoing research.
Very interesting ..... and fascinating to consider the calibre variation (air in the barrel) !!
 
finally found a drawing of the case:
 

Attachments

  • Gilsa152mmGaubizeObr1910g.jpg
    Gilsa152mmGaubizeObr1910g.jpg
    69.4 KB · Views: 45
In English one could say "play" or "freeplay" or even "tolerance"..

And a drawing.... yay !
Feeling very confident now about the identity of this case.
Thanks for all your help
 
There were in fact 4 different foreign 152mm howitzers in service with the Russian Army in WW1. As part of the general upgrade of the Russian artillery park following the Russo-Japanese war
the Russian Army asked foreign gun manufacturers for prototypes of two types of 152mm howitzers. A heavy type (3 - 4t) intended for use in fortresses and a lighter
field howitzer. Both Schneider and Krupp produced prototypes of these types of howitzers. Somewhat confusingly all 4 types entered service either as licence built guns
or batches of foreign built guns. So there is the 152mm Haubitze M.09 (fortress) and 152mm Haubitze M.10 (field) from Krupp and similar guns from Schneider (M.09 -
fortress, M.10 - field). And to add to the confusion all the surviving 152mm howitzers went through an upgrade process in the 1930s and served into WW2. The Germans
captured large numbers of Russian artillery so my guess is that the cartridge case was produced for captured Russian guns.
The equivalent German calibre was 150mm so it wasn't possible to machine the Russian barrels to accept German cartridges.
 
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