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2 Pr No.1 questions

T

Tony Williams

Well-Known Member
I am looking for a number of items of information concerning 2 Pr No.1 projectiles, and would be grateful for any help:

I have only ever seen the original nose-fuzed 2 lb HE shell fitted with a time fuze. Similarly, I have only ever seen the 1938+ 1.7 lb High Velocity HE shell fitted with a flat-nosed impact fuze. Is this correct, or was there any "mixing and matching"?

Does any know how much explosive the original and HV HE shells contained?

I have a round loaded with a pointed, base-fuzed projectile (see below). Was this designated the Common Pointed? Does anyone know what the shell weighed complete, and what the muzzle velocity was? (I am assuming the same as the 2 Pr HE, but I'd like to be sure!). Also, does anyone know how much HE it contained? Finally, my example has been repainted. Is black the correct colour, or would there have been any contrasting bands? I presume that this load was developed for surface fire and only saw use in WW1, but any more info welcomed.

Finally, were there any other service "warshot" loadings of this case, except for the special AP loadings for the Vickers Class S aircraft gun?

37-40mmWW1.jpg
 
Hi Tony,

The "Ammunition Pocket Book" of 1924 (an Admiralty publication) says the 2-Pdr was only filled with Black Powder, and if Common Pointed had either a Hotchkiss Mk IV**** or Mk.VIII base fuze, and if nose fuzed had the No.121 or 124.

It doesn't seem to have had a HE filling until later, so I imagine all WW1 vintage ones would be black, with a red filling ring, and a white ring to indicate that it was made of steel.

However, later shells could be fitted with the No.241 Percussion DA nose fuze. I have a shell that came with this; the shell is stamped (faintly) "2PR V/N B.I.T. LOT 1 B.S. 9/36" and the fuze is stamped 241.I N RL 5/36.

One of the Handbooks on the 2-Pdr of WW2 date says HE HV Mk.1 T fuzed DA No 243 with Igniter shell, No.1 Mk.1 or Mk.II weighs 1 lb. 13 ozs. 6drs +/- 5 drs.

The Mk.II shell with same fuze and igniter weighs 1 lb. 10 ozs. 15 drs. +/- 5 drs.

It also mentions Shot AP Mk.IIT of 2 lb. 6 ozs., plus various practice & practice-tracer.

Later on, there was also a star-shell.

Hope this is helpful.

Regards,
Roger.
 
Technical details of the star shell can be found in paragraphs 296 & 297 of the Handbook of Ammunition 1945 BR932.

The star shell was designed for illuminating the areas on the flanks of convoys, development was protracted and by the time the design was perfected in 1942 the convoy escorts were equipped with radar so its main use seems to have been with coastal forces where it was found the star shell had a useful incendiary effect when placed in the belts with the standard HE rounds.

2PRHVI star shell.jpg
 
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sorry no new info. but to complicate things there are No. 125 fuzes dated 1953 which are similar to the No. 124. There is a post detailing these but not why they were made or even if they were for 2pr AA.
 
A bit more info.

The Text Book of Ammunition 1936 has a reference (on page 208) to Aircraft guns, wherein it refers to the 2-Pdr with HE shell and Fuze No. 131.

The 1941 dated Pamphlet for 2-Pdr Mk.XI and XII Guns says that the Mk.XII Gun (which is the Low Angle sub-calibre gun) uses the same ammunition as the Mk. VIII LV gun, with HE shell with Fuze No. 240 or 241, and CP shell as for 2-Pdr Mk. II* gun.

Roger.
 
Thanks Roger. Some further questions, if I may:

ydnum303 said:
Hi Tony,

The "Ammunition Pocket Book" of 1924 (an Admiralty publication) says the 2-Pdr was only filled with Black Powder, and if Common Pointed had either a Hotchkiss Mk IV**** or Mk.VIII base fuze, and if nose fuzed had the No.121 or 124.
Click to expand...

Do you have any illustrations showing the different fuzes used?

It doesn't seem to have had a HE filling until later, so I imagine all WW1 vintage ones would be black, with a red filling ring, and a white ring to indicate that it was made of steel.
Click to expand...

Again, do you have an illustration showing the size and location of the two rings? Since mine has been repainted anyway, I might as well give it the proper colour scheme!

It also mentions Shot AP Mk.IIT of 2 lb. 6 ozs., plus various practice & practice-tracer.
Click to expand...

Is this the shot used in the Class S aircraft gun loading? It seems to be the same weight.


Thanks for any help,

EDIT to add - I didn't see your last post until I had sent this one!
 
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Fuze, Percussion D.A. No. 241
para 365 This fuze is for use with:-
(1)2-pdr L.V. 3-pdr and 6-pdr H.E. shell.
(2) The "K" device with 6 inch C.P.B.C. shell and 8 inch S.A.P.C.
It supersedes No. 131 and No. 240.

Fuze, Percussion, D.A. No. 243
para 369 This fuze is used wth 2-pdr H.V. H.E. shell. It has now been superseded by the No. 246, to which it is similar except the later embodies delay arrangements.

Fuze, Percussion, D.A. No. 246
para 370 This fuze supersedes No. 243 and is used with 2-pdr H.E. shell in multiple H.V. close range equipments.

Fuze, Percussion, Base, Hotchkiss, Mark IX.
para 383 This fuze is used in 3-pdr and 6-pdr pointed steel powder filled shell and also in 2-pdr C.P. shell.

Fuze, Time, No. 125
para 411 This fuze is for use with 2-pdr to 6-pdr common nose fuzed shell and has superseded No. 124.

Handbook of Ammunition 1945 BR932
 
Hi Tony, please find the attached image of a 3 PR C.P. projectile, I'd imagine the 2 PR C.P. would be similarly marked (two bands and 'N'). The bands are 11 mm thick.
(red ring explosive content and the white ring semi AP)

3-pdr paint..JPG

"It also mentions Shot AP Mk.IIT of 2 lb. 6 ozs" The 2 PR anti-tank gun armour-piercing shot Mk.IIT weighed 2lb 5oz 13dr, pretty close to 2lb 6oz! also i'm not sure the S gun projectiles were fitted with tracers? S gun rounds seem to be marked AP 40 M/M rather than 2 PR (although I have one that's marked AP SHOT so go figure!)

P.S. the fuze in the above post are illustrated in the Handbook. If needed I can post a picture of the Hotchkiss fuze from a handbook.

AAA%20tracer.jpg

Hotchkiss fuze is shown bottom.
 
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I have sectioned drawings of the flat-nosed No.243 and 246 fuzes because the same ones were used in the 2pr No.2 HE shell, for which I have an ammo handbook. Incidentally, this also used the more pointed No.255 DA fuze.
 
According to the 1915 handbook on ammunition the white ring denotes a steel shell. (which would be semi ap but I dont think that term was used then.) Have I started a "discussion"?
 
2pounder said:
According to the 1915 handbook on ammunition the white ring denotes a steel shell. (which would be semi ap but I dont think that term was used then.) Have I started a "discussion"?
Click to expand...

Your right, so the only discussion needed is at what date between 1915, when the white ring indicated a steel shell, and the 1936 text book, when it denotes semi AP, did the change take place?
This change must have caused some confusion and repainting as steel shells had no white ring after the change over.

181-db236f7025.jpg183-10509a3508.jpg182-f0e8e7a1aa.jpg
 
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Now for another question. What are the time periods for use of the MKs 1, 2 and 3, 2 pdr shells. Thanks again ,the Otter
 
Thanks Q. for the scans. The steel / AP question is possibley in the list of changes documents, I've no books between 1915 and 1936 handbooks to look in. Again shell Mk.s would be list of changes. My guess would be that as shell have a life and the 1915 book no doubt came out after then, anything shellwise in service would get used and anything past its use by date would get used in practice, only new issue shell would be painted to the new standard. Anyway a steel shell would be semi ap so perhaps it was only a name change as by then all shell were steel. Discuss!
 
The first table is from the 1924 Pocket Book of Ammunition and shows a single white band as semi-AP so the change had taken place by then.

However, the other two pictures are from Textbook of Ammunition 1926. That still says a single white band denotes steel shell, but note that it says the white band will be omitted in future.

Regards
TonyE
 

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This is by far the best thread on BOCN for ages,so more bits to keep it going! Practice plug No 243, No 243 mkII, No 246 mkI, in the group of three left to right. The steel plug replicates a No121, this one comes from a HE mkIII shell stamped P for practice,anyone else got one similiar? Cheers Tig.
 
Tracers and plugs from 2 pdr Naval shells. Ignore items 5 and 6, they are land service 2 pdr. No 7 is a HV HE shell bakelite plug fitted in filling factory.
From Left.
1,Mk I internal night tracer Hotchkiss type L/H thread.
2,Plug firing No14,fits later HV shell when converted to practice.(Steel) also in brass.
3,Tracer igniter No1 Mk1 (aluminium)
4,Tracer igniter No7 mk1(steel)
Hope this is of interest and will add more pics after Xmas.
 
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