20 X 110 Hispano representing SAPI

[SG500]

I picked this one up the other day. The projectile is described in Labbett & Meads book on 20mm Hispano ammunition as follows:-

"Cartridge SA representing semi armour piercing incendiary. Design D6/L/895/GF/94 dated February 1953 covered this cartridge.
The projectile has a standard high explosive shell body with base plate. This was fitted with a mild steel pointed nose piece. Weight 134 grammes.
The filling was an inert substance.
The tip of the nose piece was painted light blue. The rest of the nose piece and the shell body was black except that on the ogive was painted a thin yellow band".

The case didn't come with it but it displays nicely in it and the dates close - its another of those odd aluminium versions.

Dave.

 

[SG500]

Forgot to say - this is INERT etc.
Dave.

 

[Rockteer]

I have asked this before, but how can you tell if a cannon head is inert or not? I am always worried in case any of mine are live, but all have come via fairs etc so I would hope they are safe but I would like to know for sure!

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Never assume !

Simply put-you cannot be 100% sure unless they can be seen to be totally empty.

It is always best to assume that the item concerned if LIVE unless you can prove otherwise and handle it accordingly.

This is where you get to decide which dealers are good and which do not quite match up to safety standards.

When you learn about all these things you will get used to the feel of something and it is always best to err on the side of caution-if you have a doubt then DONT TOUCH IT!
Fortunately I still have have all my fingers intact !

 

[Rockteer]

Ok, I hear you and understand, I have several 20mm cannon shells that are empty but how can I tell if the head is safe, am I meant to dispose of them if I don't know or is there a way I can tell, perhaps you can PM me.

 

[SG500]

From my point of view I rarely buy cannon projectiles from fairs and try and stick to contacts who can show me or prove to me that the item is empty/inert and safe before I swap or buy it i.e they unscrew it and show me, the round has inert/inerte etc on it, the round is sectioned so you can see the inside, there is documentary evidence as in this example that they were designed to be inert etc. etc. The ones to watch out for are all those AP cored jacketed rounds that aren't really going to do anyone much harm but are section 5 and could theoretically land you in a pile of trouble (unless of course you have it on your FAC). As for rusty cannon projectiles with fuzes in the end from car boot sales...........no chance!! If in doubt don't fiddle around with it.
I'm sure Spotter & the EOD guys can add to this.
Dave.

 

[Rockteer]

Hi, I just want to add, that I am only being cautious, I have no reason to suspect them being live but I would just like to know for sure, makes a difference if they sit on a shelf or not as the case may be.

 

[SG500]

Me too, been collecting for 20 years, still cautious, still have all my fingers!!
Dave.

 

[poltewerke]

This is inert - if you open it up you will find a solid alum. machined internal plug. Will find one and photo the plug for you Dave. Dont worry its a representing only and is 'inert' Regards, RonB.

 

[Rockteer]

Look forward to it.

 

[Tony Williams]

I have asked this before, but how can you tell if a cannon head is inert or not?

I don't mean to nit-pick but it's important to get the terminology right to avoid confusion. I assume from your posts that by "head" you mean "projectile", or "shell". The "head" of a cartridge is logically where you find the "headstamp" - on the bottom of the case (although this is more commonly referred to as the "base" - I suppose the markings should be called the "base stamp" but that term isn't used).

Of course, the "head" is nowhere near the "shoulder" of the case, whereas the projectile sits on top of it, so I can understand the common mix-up.

While on the same general subject, the "shell" is the HE/I-carrying hollow projectile which is fired from the gun, not the empty cartridge case (which is often what is meant).

When you think of how few parts a cartridge has, it's amazing how confused the popular terminology has become...

 

[TonyE]

"heads"

Thank you Tony!

For years I have been having a regular rant against the use of the term "Head" for bullet or projectile, as members of this and other forums know.

One cannot blame newcomers to the hobby for making this mistake, as the incorrect terminology has been promulgated by many of the dealers selling inert ammo, especially since the advent of e-bay and SA on-line.

Many of these know less about ammunition than I know about brain surgery!

I doubt if the mistake will ever die out, but we have to keep trying.

Cheers
tonyE

 

[Rockteer]

Consider ones wrist slapped! The projectile is what I mean, the case is quite evident but the head is a different kettle of fish, I see a lot of the 20mm shell with projectiles on display and for sale, are these section 5 then?

Reading between the lines the projectiles with screw fuses are a no no, the solid are ok or not ok?

poltewerke still no pic or at least I couldn't see one, would like to visually get my aXse from elbow sorted out!

 

[SG500]

Thank you Tony!

For years I have been having a regular rant against the use of the term "Head" for bullet or projectile, as members of this and other forums know.

One cannot blame newcomers to the hobby for making this mistake, as the incorrect terminology has been promulgated by many of the dealers selling inert ammo, especially since the advent of e-bay and SA on-line.

Many of these know less about ammunition than I know about brain surgery!

I doubt if the mistake will ever die out, but we have to keep trying.

Cheers
tonyE

"Shell casing" seems to have crept in over recent years too.

Dave.

 

[SG500]

Consider ones wrist slapped! The projectile is what I mean, the case is quite evident but the head is a different kettle of fish, I see a lot of the 20mm shell with projectiles on display and for sale, are these section 5 then?

Reading between the lines the projectiles with screw fuses are a no no, the solid are ok or not ok?

poltewerke still no pic or at least I couldn't see one, would like to visually get my aXse from elbow sorted out!

Cannon rounds with fuzes are fine as long as they're empty and dealers/collectors who know what they're doing will be able to prove this to you. I'm sure someone has done a really good document on what you need a FAC for/what is legal and what is not - was it Tony E??
Dave.

 

[poltewerke]

20 mm. H.S. SAP/l Rep.(inert filling).

Consider ones wrist slapped! The projectile is what I mean, the case is quite evident but the head is a different kettle of fish, I see a lot of the 20mm shell with projectiles on display and for sale, are these section 5 then?

Reading between the lines the projectiles with screw fuses are a no no, the solid are ok or not ok?

poltewerke still no pic or at least I couldn't see one, would like to visually get my aXse from elbow sorted out!

I have posted photo to-day- suggest you review the subject. Regards, RonB.

 

[Falcon]

I was told by a very good source that anything designated "AP" that has a driving band is fine, as it must have a jacket and hard core (eg. small arms ammo) to be section 5.

 

[TonyE]

I picked this one up the other day. The projectile is described in Labbett & Meads book on 20mm Hispano ammunition as follows:-

"Cartridge SA representing semi armour piercing incendiary. Design D6/L/895/GF/94 dated February 1953 covered this cartridge.
The projectile has a standard high explosive shell body with base plate. This was fitted with a mild steel pointed nose piece. Weight 134 grammes.
The filling was an inert substance.
The tip of the nose piece was painted light blue. The rest of the nose piece and the shell body was black except that on the ogive was painted a thin yellow band".

The case didn't come with it but it displays nicely in it and the dates close - its another of those odd aluminium versions.

Dave.

Odd in what way Dave? (apart from its desirability that is).

Your case is part of the British light alloy experiments that were carried out in all the service calibres.

Work started before the war had finished when a sub-committee was formed off the Inter Services Technical Committee on Small Arms Ammunition and they held their first mmeting on 6th February 1945.

Their brief was to develop light alloy cases to the point of mass production meeting all requirements met by current brass cases and suitable for Service approval.

Light alloy cases were produced in 9mm, .270, .280, .280/30, 30-06, 7.92mm, .303, 20mm Hispano, 20mm Oerlikon, 30mm Aden LV, 30mm Aden HV and 30/20mm Aden.

Work was stopped in 1957 and the final report published in December 1957. The conclusion regretted that work had been stopped before development was complete but stated that whilst 9mm and 30mm showed promise and a weight saving of 25% could be achieved, "It is the opinion of the Committee that 70/30 brass remains the best general material for S.A.A. cases as regards functioning in weapons and certainly as far as ease of manufacture and life in storage are concerned."

Your 1954 case is quite late in the trials. I had a similar unprimed empty 20mm Hispano orange case headstamped "RG 48 P", but as I do not collect 20mm that is long gone.

Attached are a couple of pictures of a .280 plain coloured and a selection of .303s in various coloured anodises, with a 7.92mm far left. Ignore the three plain aluminium .303s as they were not part of the above trial.

Regards
Tony

 

[SG500]

Thanks Tony, yes I was just trying to focus the start of the thread on the projectile rather than on the case (I did a separate thread on them a while ago) but thanks for the details, if you should ever come across a light alloy version of the Aden 30/20 then please keep me in mind, I never reaslised they made an alloy version of the 30/20 until I read your article above.
Nice rounds in your photos, they display well.
The conclusion of the committee is interesting........keeping in mine the GAU 8 cases that were subsequently developed elsewhere.
Dave.

 

[TonyE]

Light alloy

I think most of the problems would have been overcome had more time been given. The technology improved considerably between the mid 1950s and when the GAU series of aluminium cases were developed (1970 ish?).

The committee said that 30 mm had reached a stage where it was promising, but there were still problems that if the cases got scratched or scored in handling, a burst case was likely to result.

I have (poor) photocopies of the photo of the 30/20 light alloy case if you would like me to post.

Regards
TonyE