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3.45" / 25pr case
- Thread starter kahu1
- Start date
I've never heard an explanation of the difference in designation marking on these cases. Occasionally you find one marked 3.45 inch like this one, but most often you find the standard 25 Pdr. marked one. Was there some "official" declaration that specified that they needed to be marked 25 Pdr., or was there a design change in the gun with maybe a different rifling twist, or something like that?
Tim,
I actually thought that you would be the one that answered my question. Thanks! I just couldn't figure why shot weight, which has been used as far back as muzzle loading cannon wasn't used from the start, since these 3.45 inch cases are early 1900's dated. Is there any idea when the change was officially made to 25Pdr.?
I actually thought that you would be the one that answered my question. Thanks! I just couldn't figure why shot weight, which has been used as far back as muzzle loading cannon wasn't used from the start, since these 3.45 inch cases are early 1900's dated. Is there any idea when the change was officially made to 25Pdr.?
John,
Sorry, no idea. To complicate matters I've found a document dated 1936 that refers to the artillery piece as '25 pounder' (haven't had a chance to go and see it ). I'm sure Bonnex will be able to shed some light on the matter as there must be something in W.O.L.C. (War Office List of Changes) stating it is no longer 3.45" but a 25 pounder.
Tim
Sorry, no idea. To complicate matters I've found a document dated 1936 that refers to the artillery piece as '25 pounder' (haven't had a chance to go and see it ). I'm sure Bonnex will be able to shed some light on the matter as there must be something in W.O.L.C. (War Office List of Changes) stating it is no longer 3.45" but a 25 pounder.
Tim
Hogg appears to have this covered in his description of the development of the 25pdr.
A 3.7" tube firing a 25lb shell was planned for the 18pdr jacket, to convert 18pdr guns into "gun-howitzer" variants. However, the calibre had to be reduced to 3.45" to allow the original 18pdr breech and mechanism, the conversion being officially approved in LoC, Equipment, 26 August 1936 as "Ordnance QF 3.45in Mk I". This governed conversion of 18pdr Mk IV guns to box trail Mk III or split trail Mk V carriages.
In LoC 11 February 1938, the nomenclature was changed to "Ordnance QF 25pdr Mark I", though it was commonly called the "18/25 pounder". Over 1,000 were made.
The photo is the one at Firepower Museum, which I've posted before on a 25pdr thread.
(In Africa and Italy my father fought alongside an ex-gunner who in May 1940 had helped push his 18/25 into a river before heading for the Dunkirk beaches. It seems many of the 18/25s suffered similar fates.)
Tom.
A 3.7" tube firing a 25lb shell was planned for the 18pdr jacket, to convert 18pdr guns into "gun-howitzer" variants. However, the calibre had to be reduced to 3.45" to allow the original 18pdr breech and mechanism, the conversion being officially approved in LoC, Equipment, 26 August 1936 as "Ordnance QF 3.45in Mk I". This governed conversion of 18pdr Mk IV guns to box trail Mk III or split trail Mk V carriages.
In LoC 11 February 1938, the nomenclature was changed to "Ordnance QF 25pdr Mark I", though it was commonly called the "18/25 pounder". Over 1,000 were made.
The photo is the one at Firepower Museum, which I've posted before on a 25pdr thread.
(In Africa and Italy my father fought alongside an ex-gunner who in May 1940 had helped push his 18/25 into a river before heading for the Dunkirk beaches. It seems many of the 18/25s suffered similar fates.)
Tom.
Attachments
Tom,
Thanks for the explanation.
At Dunkirk, aside from the human losses we apparently lost -
2,472 guns,
20,000 motorcycles
Approx 65,000 other vehicles;
377,000 tonnes of stores
68,000 tonnes of ammunition
147,000 tonnes of fuel.
Almost all of the 445 British tanks were abandoned.
TimG
Thanks for the explanation.
At Dunkirk, aside from the human losses we apparently lost -
2,472 guns,
20,000 motorcycles
Approx 65,000 other vehicles;
377,000 tonnes of stores
68,000 tonnes of ammunition
147,000 tonnes of fuel.
Almost all of the 445 British tanks were abandoned.
TimG
Thanks for your confidence Tim. I could have done it but Tom never sleeps
Somewhere I tripped over an explanation of the how we chose the use of -Pr, -inch and mm when designating a store. I will see if I can find it.Best.
Just to confirm the change of markings, I have just picked up a 1938 dated 25pr cart, lot number 270.
Gary
ww_soldier
Member
I recently bought 6 1938 shall cases.
They are all marked 25pdr II, CF-filled
1) Lot 277 - Maker E.C.C. - primer 7/37
2) Lot 6 - Maker R.L. - primer 11/37
3) Lot 60 - Maker R.L. - primer 1/37
4) Lot 236 - Maker R.L.L. - primer 7/38
5) Lot 189 - Maker VAEL - primer 11/37
6) Lot 230 - Maker R.L.B. - primer 4/38
They are all marked 25pdr II, CF-filled
1) Lot 277 - Maker E.C.C. - primer 7/37
2) Lot 6 - Maker R.L. - primer 11/37
3) Lot 60 - Maker R.L. - primer 1/37
4) Lot 236 - Maker R.L.L. - primer 7/38
5) Lot 189 - Maker VAEL - primer 11/37
6) Lot 230 - Maker R.L.B. - primer 4/38
Even more interestingly, I have just found a 1938 dated Mark II 3.45" case, made by ECC, with a German primer fitted. I say German primer because it is the same style as their normal C/12 but on a scale so it will fit into the 3.45" case, the normal German C/12 being too sloppy in the primer cavity. The primer has no markings at all but has the normal German 2 keyholes as opposed to the Brit smaller cutouts. I should say captured booty from Dunkerque ?? History is fascinating.
ww_soldier
Member
Just received a new shell:
3.45"
1937
Lot 20
ECC
primer is marked RL1/37
3.45"
1937
Lot 20
ECC
primer is marked RL1/37