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30mm. What is this thing?
- Thread starter DEADLINE222
- Start date
French manuals do list the cartridges separately and also do show differing projectiles. Further I read a German WWII statement on stocks of captured HS9 cases and it was mentioned that they could not use them for the Flak 28 (German Oerlikon version) without reworking the cases.
I asked a well informed French researcher on this subject some time ago and have to wait for an answer since he moved recently and all his documents are still boxed.
My thougt so far is that the used projectiles do have other base diameters (the section below the driving band) since we know the Oerlikon ones to have a smaller diameter than other 20mm cartridges. It might be that the HS9 was using 20x110 HS 404 projectiles which had a larger base diameter then. (have no specimen anymore to check on this)
So right now I am waiting for the answer from France.
I asked a well informed French researcher on this subject some time ago and have to wait for an answer since he moved recently and all his documents are still boxed.
My thougt so far is that the used projectiles do have other base diameters (the section below the driving band) since we know the Oerlikon ones to have a smaller diameter than other 20mm cartridges. It might be that the HS9 was using 20x110 HS 404 projectiles which had a larger base diameter then. (have no specimen anymore to check on this)
So right now I am waiting for the answer from France.
Tony Williams
Well-Known Member
I have just checked my copy of the translation of the 1940 French booklet "Renseignments Sur Les Munitions de Petits Calibres" and see that they do indeed list ammo for the "20mm MG Mle 1939 (20x110RB Oerlikon)" separately from the ""20mm MG Type HS 9 (20x110RB Oerlikon)" - I had not noticed that before! Unfortunately there is no explanation for the distinction being made.
I suspect that you may be right about the use of Hispano projectiles. The (admittedly rather simple) drawings included in the manual do suggest that this is the case, and the overall length of the HS 9 rounds is given as 185mm compared with 180mm for the Mle 1939.
I suspect that you may be right about the use of Hispano projectiles. The (admittedly rather simple) drawings included in the manual do suggest that this is the case, and the overall length of the HS 9 rounds is given as 185mm compared with 180mm for the Mle 1939.
Histavia21
Active Member
Hi,
As I don’t have any idea on this cartridge I asked Col. JACQUINET, the curator of the French air force museum of Dijon AFB what he thinks about it. He is writing a book on French aircraft revolver guns and their ammunition and he had studied the subject from many years.
I’m a member of the staff of the museum (we have a genuine MG 213 C gun among other aircraft guns in the collection of the museum) and I’m helping him by drawing a lot of ammunition sections for his book with my computer.
With only a bad picture of the round with no accurate measurement it is not easy at first glance. Moreover it is impossible to appreciate diameters of extractor lip and grove.
Case length is given for 110 mm ( but the driving belt in copper is about 7 millimeters high and the case in brass...) and the seen part of the shell has about the same length. There is also a light shoulder at half of the case length.
At first glance as the given case length is not accurate, two different cases are more or less close to the one on the picture :
- Oerlikon “type 301 FK” with a belted case of 100 mm for a linear action aircraft gun,
- FA developed round for the T-121 and T-182 revolver guns. The case is 102 mm length is numbered FAT 33 and the HEI cartridge is T160.
I think that the cartridge on the picture is the inert model of the variant T160E15. In fact all the development of the 30 mm HEI for the first revolver guns are coded T 160 beginning with the 30 X 86B cartridge for the T121 gun. T160E15 being for a higher velocity development gun (lengthened case and shorten shell to increase the powder load).
This dummy cartridge bears the painting used for the HEI medium calibre cartridges also seen in 20 X 102 and 20 X 110 HS guns used by USAF in that period.
The base of the 301 FK cartridge is fatter than the one of the FAT 33 base and don’t fit with the one on the picture.
So I’m not astonished that today such a round would arise somewhere.
JCJ.
Sources : Huntington, Vol II, page 154, FA - SAA pamphlet 23-1.
Best Regards, Dan
As I don’t have any idea on this cartridge I asked Col. JACQUINET, the curator of the French air force museum of Dijon AFB what he thinks about it. He is writing a book on French aircraft revolver guns and their ammunition and he had studied the subject from many years.
I’m a member of the staff of the museum (we have a genuine MG 213 C gun among other aircraft guns in the collection of the museum) and I’m helping him by drawing a lot of ammunition sections for his book with my computer.
With only a bad picture of the round with no accurate measurement it is not easy at first glance. Moreover it is impossible to appreciate diameters of extractor lip and grove.
Case length is given for 110 mm ( but the driving belt in copper is about 7 millimeters high and the case in brass...) and the seen part of the shell has about the same length. There is also a light shoulder at half of the case length.
At first glance as the given case length is not accurate, two different cases are more or less close to the one on the picture :
- Oerlikon “type 301 FK” with a belted case of 100 mm for a linear action aircraft gun,
- FA developed round for the T-121 and T-182 revolver guns. The case is 102 mm length is numbered FAT 33 and the HEI cartridge is T160.
I think that the cartridge on the picture is the inert model of the variant T160E15. In fact all the development of the 30 mm HEI for the first revolver guns are coded T 160 beginning with the 30 X 86B cartridge for the T121 gun. T160E15 being for a higher velocity development gun (lengthened case and shorten shell to increase the powder load).
This dummy cartridge bears the painting used for the HEI medium calibre cartridges also seen in 20 X 102 and 20 X 110 HS guns used by USAF in that period.
The base of the 301 FK cartridge is fatter than the one of the FAT 33 base and don’t fit with the one on the picture.
So I’m not astonished that today such a round would arise somewhere.
JCJ.
Sources : Huntington, Vol II, page 154, FA - SAA pamphlet 23-1.
Best Regards, Dan
Last edited:
Hi Dan would you be able to post some photographs of the MG 213 C please. I've only ever seen historic black and white photographs of the 213.
Thanks.
Dave.
Histavia21
Active Member
Hi,
First time i think make one answer like "sorry" for moment, the essential for technical study about the guns need to be reserve for our book .
Not for buisness reason, it's one book ( 2, one in french language and one in english) published under author count, return to coast is impossible,
lost by advance, it's just a challenge to publish one first serious technical book about guns and ammos made in france;
so, sorry you need wait just a moment for better pics ( and more for other models ;-).
Best Regards, Dan
First time i think make one answer like "sorry" for moment, the essential for technical study about the guns need to be reserve for our book .
Not for buisness reason, it's one book ( 2, one in french language and one in english) published under author count, return to coast is impossible,
lost by advance, it's just a challenge to publish one first serious technical book about guns and ammos made in france;
so, sorry you need wait just a moment for better pics ( and more for other models ;-).
Best Regards, Dan
WOW THAT'S BRILLIANT, THANK YOU!! You are really lucky to have one in your museum and such good condition. When will be book be finished?Hi,
First time i think make one answer like "sorry" for moment, the essential for technical study about the guns need to be reserve for our book .
Not for buisness reason, it's one book ( 2, one in french language and one in english) published under author count, return to coast is impossible,
lost by advance, it's just a challenge to publish one first serious technical book about guns and ammos made in france;
so, sorry you need wait just a moment for better pics ( and more for other models ;-).
Best Regards, Dan
Dave.
Histavia21
Active Member
Hi, i hope the 2 variants are finished and printed before the end of 2012 .
Bsrg, Dan
Bsrg, Dan