hans prijs
Active Member
new to my collection.
besa ammo box 450 cartridges in linked belts
regards hans
besa ammo box 450 cartridges in linked belts
regards hans
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7.92 besa ammo box h29
- Thread starter hans prijs
- Start date
hans prijs
Active Member
A really nice box & I'd guess very rare - I've certainly never seen one before! Quite interesting historically as well, as its obviously factory belted ammo with a standard mix of Ball, Tracer, AP & Incendiary. Something I certainly didnt know that tank armament would have fired in that mix! Nice one I'm jealous!
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Besa
No fifth line, just ball, tracer, AP and incendiary.
The incendiary B Mark Iz (as in this box) was too sensitive and if there was a misfeed the bullet was liable to detonate in the oen receiver. This was particularly unpopukar as the breech was by the gunner's ear. The problem was put down to the incendiary filling of SR365. When the round was developed old incendiary filling was used, but when in production with newly made SR365 it was too sensitive. It was quickly replaced by the B Mark IIz.
I have attached an interesting label. When the Besa first came into service there was a demand for an incendiary round, but the B Mark Iz was not ready, so the military purchased some smoke tracer that Kynoch had available. Smoke tracer was the alternative name for the Buckingham type phosphorus incendiary that Kynoch made for export. This label shows these being used in early mixed belts. As it left a smoke trail there was no need for separate tracers.
Regards
TonyE
No fifth line, just ball, tracer, AP and incendiary.
The incendiary B Mark Iz (as in this box) was too sensitive and if there was a misfeed the bullet was liable to detonate in the oen receiver. This was particularly unpopukar as the breech was by the gunner's ear. The problem was put down to the incendiary filling of SR365. When the round was developed old incendiary filling was used, but when in production with newly made SR365 it was too sensitive. It was quickly replaced by the B Mark IIz.
I have attached an interesting label. When the Besa first came into service there was a demand for an incendiary round, but the B Mark Iz was not ready, so the military purchased some smoke tracer that Kynoch had available. Smoke tracer was the alternative name for the Buckingham type phosphorus incendiary that Kynoch made for export. This label shows these being used in early mixed belts. As it left a smoke trail there was no need for separate tracers.
Regards
TonyE
Attachments
7.92 Besa Ammunition Tin Label
I took this photo a few years ago at the ACCA cartridge auction and thought it was unusual at the time. I think the tin had miscellaneous cartridges and other bits in it and was probably seen as just a storage bin. I was beginning to get interested in labelling and took the photo for reference.
I took this photo a few years ago at the ACCA cartridge auction and thought it was unusual at the time. I think the tin had miscellaneous cartridges and other bits in it and was probably seen as just a storage bin. I was beginning to get interested in labelling and took the photo for reference.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
I cannot help with how the belt mix changed over time, but note the mix in the above post. All three types have a 1942 date of Work.
Th first box posted can be roughly dated from the types of ammo.
The G Mark IIz was approved in September 1941 but was not produced in quantity until 1942, and the first production of the B Mark Iz was February 1942 also. The first production of the B Mark IIz was February 1943 so I would put that box between mid 1942 and early 1943.
Regards
TonyE
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
A thought occurred to me.
If you think the Besa is obscure (which of course it is not really) then how about the Besal MG?
Anybody know what it is?
Also, regarding the 7.92 Besa ammo, has anyone seen an AP headstamped WIZ other than the Greek manufactured ones?
Regards
TonyE
smle2009
Well-Known Member
Hi TonyE,
The Besal MG was an attempt at an easy& quick to manufacture rapid firing gun by R.S.F.A at Enfield( later re named the Fauknere?) only small numbers made as the Bren was allready being manufactured.
Bet I've got some of this wrong
Regards Tony
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Besal
More or less got it in one, smle.
RSAF Enfield was the only factory producing the Bren, and as it was on the outskirts of London, very vulnerable to bombing. It was deciced that a quick and dirty LMG was required to be put into production if RSAF was ever put out of action.
It was designed by a chap called Faulkner at BSA and the plan was that it would not be produced, but that it would be ready to go if needed. I don't know how many were actually made, but the few that were ended up with the Royal Navy on coastal motor boats. picture attached.
Regards
TonyE
More or less got it in one, smle.
RSAF Enfield was the only factory producing the Bren, and as it was on the outskirts of London, very vulnerable to bombing. It was deciced that a quick and dirty LMG was required to be put into production if RSAF was ever put out of action.
It was designed by a chap called Faulkner at BSA and the plan was that it would not be produced, but that it would be ready to go if needed. I don't know how many were actually made, but the few that were ended up with the Royal Navy on coastal motor boats. picture attached.
Regards
TonyE
Attachments
I have a feeling the phosphorus-round belts might be for the Vickers AA tank? Seems a little out of place for WP machine gun rounds to be on the general battlefield.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Incendiaries
That is certainly a possibility, although I am not sure when the AA tank with 4 x BESA came into service.
However, it seems it was normal for tank MG belts to include incendiaries, presumably for fuel tank ignition, so when the change was made from the .303 Vickers to the BESA there was a requirement for incendiary rounds. Remember until 1940 when the .303 B Mark VI incendiary filled with SR365 came into service, the only incendiary available was the B Mark IV which was a Buckingham phosphorus filled round.
There were problems developing the 7.92mm incendiary B Mark I and it was not approved until 1942, and even then at a lower muzzle velocity that was ideal. It was because if this delay that the military were purchasing non standard rounds from Kynoch as a stop gap. They also did this with some early 7.92mm tracer and in .303 they bought Kynoch "trade pattern" phosphorus incendiaries in 1940 as well.
Regards
TonyE
That is certainly a possibility, although I am not sure when the AA tank with 4 x BESA came into service.
However, it seems it was normal for tank MG belts to include incendiaries, presumably for fuel tank ignition, so when the change was made from the .303 Vickers to the BESA there was a requirement for incendiary rounds. Remember until 1940 when the .303 B Mark VI incendiary filled with SR365 came into service, the only incendiary available was the B Mark IV which was a Buckingham phosphorus filled round.
There were problems developing the 7.92mm incendiary B Mark I and it was not approved until 1942, and even then at a lower muzzle velocity that was ideal. It was because if this delay that the military were purchasing non standard rounds from Kynoch as a stop gap. They also did this with some early 7.92mm tracer and in .303 they bought Kynoch "trade pattern" phosphorus incendiaries in 1940 as well.
Regards
TonyE
Quatermass
Well-Known Member
I don't have a firm date on the introduction of the Light tank AA MK I & II but it would be some time in Late 1940, early 1941. There were only around 40 built and I think most if not all were sent to the middle east.
Tank, Light AA Mk II turret.
Tank, Light AA Mk II turret.
Gunnerop
Active Member
Hello all,
Incendiary rounds were, as Tony says, standard in all AFV belts. Many Gunners and Gunner/Operators veterans I have spoken too have stated how easy it was using the belted mix, to ignite the roofs of buildings. This was often done where farm or other buildings were held by the enemy.
Nice to see the BESA labels and box info posted recently. I have some examples myself which I will post.
Regards
Gunnerop
Incendiary rounds were, as Tony says, standard in all AFV belts. Many Gunners and Gunner/Operators veterans I have spoken too have stated how easy it was using the belted mix, to ignite the roofs of buildings. This was often done where farm or other buildings were held by the enemy.
Nice to see the BESA labels and box info posted recently. I have some examples myself which I will post.
Regards
Gunnerop
