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7.92 tropical

smle2009

smle2009

Well-Known Member
Hi To all,
I have this German 7.92mm 'tropical' round,what would be the reason for having a tropical round and what was the diffrence? apart from the black neck sealer and green band on the bullet.
Headstamp is P186 S* 7 34,also which is the correct orinentation to read these headstamps?

All the best
Tony

P3180003.JPGP3180004.JPGP3180007.JPG
 
You have a P.m.K.-v Tropen. round, i.e. a phosphorus incendiary with steel core high velocity load for tropical use.

-v munition means "Verbesserte" or improved munition and was a high velocity load for aircraft guns, especially the MG17. Velocity was 905 m/s (2978 fps) which was achieved by a new propellant similar to that used in the S.m.K.H. round.

Tropical ammunition was designed for use in hot climates, e.g. North Africa and was identified by the neck seal. P.m.k was identified by the black primer annulus and the additional primer crimp. The green band around the bullet is indicative of v-munition.

The penalty for the higher velocity was much reduced barrel life. In aircraft it was about 2,000 rounds, but on bench tests without slipstream air cooling it was 800-1,000 rounds.

V-munition is very often found in combination with Tropen sealing, and it is believed that early dated v-munition is often on re-loaded cases which might explain the double stab crimping on yours.

Regards
Tonye
 
You have a very nice example from a reloaded round.
The PmK-v was introduced in the end of 1940.
Your case was originally loaded as an sS (heavy ball) round in 1934.
In 1940 the Germans need a lot of special (brass cased) ammo for the air force. They took old ammo, pull the bullets off, put a new primer in the case and made cartridges of them, mainly used by the German air force.

You can recognize this ammo on 6 primer stacks. 3 old, and 3 new one.

Rgds
 
Thanks Dutch,
can you recomend a web site or book for these headstamp codes? I have been picking a few WW2 & WW1 7.92mm just lately and find them very intresting,but would like to be able to 'crack' the headstamp codes on them.

All the best
Tony
 
Dan Kent's book "German 7.92mm Military Ammunition" may still be available if yuo search Abe Books
"Die Militarpatronen Kalibre 7.9mm" by Brandt, Hamann and Windisch is excellent and shows many examples, but is mainly in German with some English captions.
There is also the German list of ordnance codes to identify manufacturers which I think is available on the net.

regards
TonyE
 
Many thanks TonyE,
It would also be a chance,re-learn German,I used to speak German better than English when I was a toddler! something to do with being born over there,Dad was B.A.O.R.
I may have found the net site you refer to,K98 manufacturers marks,but has a good section on ammunition codes,but dosn't give the amount of information you and Dutch gave me:wink:

All the best
Tony
 
Tony, here is a picture of all known Tropical 7,9 German Mauser WW2 cartridges.


The Germans never made S.m.K.Gl'Spur-Trop and the S.m.K.Gl'Spur-v.-Trop.
As listed on the page. :tinysmile_hmm_t:

Rgds
Dutch
 

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Wow,what a great collection Dutch,many thanks for showing them(I have two of these now so have some work to do!)
So is the site I found not very accurate then?:cry:

All the best
Tony

PS would it be ok to save your photo for my ammo folder for personal id use?
 
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Dutch,

There is an other 7,92 tropical,
SmK, L,spur - trop Cupper plated steel case Lacquered.
Afbeelding 286.jpg

Regards 451kr.
 
I have a problem with this cartridge.

The African war started with an attack from the Italian 10 th. Army on September 13. 1940 from Libya to the British troops stationed in Egypt.
At the beginning of 1941 the British forces had so many (commonwealth) reinforcements that they throw the Italian forces back to Libya. The first German troops arrived Feb. 1941 in Tripolis. The ammo they carried with them were brass cased, specially checked. See picture.
Later in 1941 cg and eej made special sS trop. rounds.

The CWS plated lacquered cases were made in 1940 and a few in 1941, before somebody was thinking going to Africa.


.
 

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Dutch,

In my collection I have a SmK L.spur- Trop brass case with headstamp P163 S* 1 41
my SmK L,spur -Trop CWS case has headstamp aux xma1 3 41
So made later as the brass case.

Regards 451kr.
 
You make a mistake if you starting point are the head stamps. And we don’t speak about brass cases.

In my collection I have a P163 S* 15 40 in SmK Lsp trop. It does not means it is loaded in 1940. They used cases from 1940. The same story, a P163 SmK trop, with a case from 1937.

The only trop. Steel case cartridges I know from, are the SmK Lsp, loaded by “cdo” in 1942 with cases from “cg”

We probably meet us end of the month on the German Ammo show. Could you please take the round with you?

Rgds
Dutch
 
Dutch,

I understand what you want to explain.
I will take it with me.

Regards 451kr.
 
Dutch said:
I have a problem with this cartridge.

The African war started with an attack from the Italian 10 th. Army on September 13. 1940 from Libya to the British troops stationed in Egypt.
At the beginning of 1941 the British forces had so many (commonwealth) reinforcements that they throw the Italian forces back to Libya. The first German troops arrived Feb. 1941 in Tripolis. The ammo they carried with them were brass cased, specially checked. See picture.
Later in 1941 cg and eej made special sS trop. rounds.

The CWS plated lacquered cases were made in 1940 and a few in 1941, before somebody was thinking going to Africa.


.
Click to expand...

So was the 'tropical' neck sealer band purely for DAK? What is the history of the 'tropical' seal, i was wondering if it has a kriegmarine usage also, surely the seal would be good for other usages apart from humidity. Is there any connection with the Czech Z / 37 / VIII / 19 rounds? I have a '19 Z 40 V' inert round in my collection that came with a cn projectile with a red band. I thought it was a mismatched projectile but seeing this earlier one on Specialist Auctions I was wondering if the German 'tropical' was a copy of this red band (just visible)

http://www.specialistauctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=1511814
 
Hi Archmoco,
I have a Czech \19/\Z/\40/\VI/ that has faint trace of red neck sealer and a green annulus.I wonder if your 1937 Czech round could have been part of the early contract ammo to GB with the Besa MG,the year would be right and we used Czech ammo orriginaly before we manufactured out own?

Cheers
Tony
 
Tony good point I never though about that, i did read something on the IAA forum that I think TonyE had posted, or maybe it was his web page regarding the trials of the BESA 7.92 & 15mm, I must go have a look.

The primer ring on mine is black, but i've managed to get the projectile out and it is was a tracer.
 
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