Just finished reading 7.9x57 Mauser Ammunition for the collector...volume 1 German WW2 second Edition by Geremy M Chubbuck. towards the back of the book he shows two headstamps under the heading Kynoch and Fraget. the only other reference is Kynoch England is under case manufacturer giving the code K...I must be reading this wrong or did Kynoch make the Mauser ammo for the gremans between the wars. The headstamp shown is /K/67/od shape/30 and for Fraget /F/67/eagle/38 someone tell me I have got this wrong....!
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7.9x57 Mauser
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TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
I do not know of this gentleman or his book for collectors, but his credentials need serious examination!
No, Kynoch did not make ammunition for the Germans between the wars.
On the round headstamped "K/67/?/30" the "K" stands for "Kern" as in Spitzgeschoss mit Kern or armour piercing. I cannot tell you the manufacturer without a picture of the symol though.
The other round is Polish, made at the P.W. U. Fabryka Amunicji government arsenal at Skarzysko-Kamienna. I am unsure what the "F" stands for but it could be "Fabryka". Fraget is a Polish cutlers and silversmiths that was established in the early 19thC and still exists today.
Regards
TonyE
No, Kynoch did not make ammunition for the Germans between the wars.
On the round headstamped "K/67/?/30" the "K" stands for "Kern" as in Spitzgeschoss mit Kern or armour piercing. I cannot tell you the manufacturer without a picture of the symol though.
The other round is Polish, made at the P.W. U. Fabryka Amunicji government arsenal at Skarzysko-Kamienna. I am unsure what the "F" stands for but it could be "Fabryka". Fraget is a Polish cutlers and silversmiths that was established in the early 19thC and still exists today.
Regards
TonyE
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TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
I may have misled you, as I assumed from your question that the first round with a "K" in the headstamp was German.Now that you have sent the picture I can see it is also Polish and the "odd symbol" is a Polish eagle.
Ignore the comments about meaning "kern" as that only applies to German ammunition, not Polish. Having said that, I am unsure of the meaning of the "K" on the Polish round but I do not believe it indicates manufacture by Kynoch. I have never seen any reference in the Kynoch order books to making ammunition for Poland. I will see what I can find out.
Regards
TonyE
Ignore the comments about meaning "kern" as that only applies to German ammunition, not Polish. Having said that, I am unsure of the meaning of the "K" on the Polish round but I do not believe it indicates manufacture by Kynoch. I have never seen any reference in the Kynoch order books to making ammunition for Poland. I will see what I can find out.
Regards
TonyE
Defender
Well-Known Member
The headstamp looks like this:
http://www.municion.org/792/6730KG.jpg
Found this list in the www. It shows the 7.92x57 brass suppliers on headstamps 6 o'clock position. My Polish is near zero and online-translators produce rubbish, but I think it fits.
Na godzinie 6 umieszczano kod dostawcy mosiądzu do produkcji łusek:
- B - Fabryka Amunicji, Armatur i Odlewnia Metali "Babbit",
- D - Schweizerische Metallwerke w Dornach, Szwajcaria,
- Dz - Walcownia Metali w Dziedzicach,
- E - Enzesfelder Metallwarenfabrik w Enzesfeld, Austria,
- F lub Fr- Fabryka Wyrobw Srebrnych i Platerowanych, Jzef Fraget w Warszawie,
- Hr - Fabryka Wyrobw Platerowanych Bracia Henneberg w Warszawie,
- K - Kynoch Ltd. w Witton, Wielka Brytania,
- N - Norblin S.A. w Warszawie,
- NW - Metallwarenfabrik Neurath w Wiedniu, Austria.
http://www.municion.org/792/6730KG.jpg
Found this list in the www. It shows the 7.92x57 brass suppliers on headstamps 6 o'clock position. My Polish is near zero and online-translators produce rubbish, but I think it fits.
Na godzinie 6 umieszczano kod dostawcy mosiądzu do produkcji łusek:
- B - Fabryka Amunicji, Armatur i Odlewnia Metali "Babbit",
- D - Schweizerische Metallwerke w Dornach, Szwajcaria,
- Dz - Walcownia Metali w Dziedzicach,
- E - Enzesfelder Metallwarenfabrik w Enzesfeld, Austria,
- F lub Fr- Fabryka Wyrobw Srebrnych i Platerowanych, Jzef Fraget w Warszawie,
- Hr - Fabryka Wyrobw Platerowanych Bracia Henneberg w Warszawie,
- K - Kynoch Ltd. w Witton, Wielka Brytania,
- N - Norblin S.A. w Warszawie,
- NW - Metallwarenfabrik Neurath w Wiedniu, Austria.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
It looks like I owe Mr.Chubbuck an apology if the "K" is indeed Kynoch as the above information suggests.
This is the first reference I have seen to Kynoch making ammunition for Poland. Next time I am at the Birmingham Proof House I will check the Kynoch 1930 order books again more closely!
Thanks everyone for help,
Regards
TonyE
This is the first reference I have seen to Kynoch making ammunition for Poland. Next time I am at the Birmingham Proof House I will check the Kynoch 1930 order books again more closely!
Thanks everyone for help,
Regards
TonyE
Paul, there is no doubt that your round was made by the Polish government arsenal at Skarzysko-Kamienna as stated by Tony. The 'K' at 6 o'clock identifies the supplier of the brass for the casing and this does now seem to be Kynoch but there is no suggestion that Kynoch were involved in manufacturing the casing. The white wax in the headstamp lettering has probably been put there deliberately by a collector - its quite a common practice to highlight headstamps and make them easier to read. Your primer annulus colouring is a bit confusing but black should indicate a light ball, green indicates a heavy ball. Are there any traces of colour on the tip of the bullet?
Jim
Jim
Hi Jimiles. The round is not mine, its in a book. but being new to all this i could not understand how a uk company was involved in making ammo for the Germans. In the book it shows the headstamp and credits it to Kynock. So are you saying that they only sent the brass and it was made elsewhere? In the photo you can clearly see the two colours but no mention of why it has the two colours. In my mind I wonder if it would have been economical to send brass to Poland?......paul
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
The fact that it seems Kynoch were the metal supplier and not the manufacturer explains why I had not seen the order in the Kynoch ammunition order book.
Paul - it is quite common for companies and/or government arsenals to purchase cartridge brass from third parties. For example, French military headstamps always used to include the code for both the manufacturer of the cartridge and the supplier of the brass, often a private company. Also, not every cartridge manufacturer has its own brass foundry and rolling mill so needs to "buy in" ready made brass strip for making cases. Some companies even buy in ready punched cups from which to make their cases.
Probably the most extreme case is when the Royal Laboratory at Woolwich used cartridge brass made at the government foundry at Cossipore in India. Of course there were special reasons for this involving quality control and compatability with British production, but it is still along way for brass to travel!
Regards
TonyE
Paul - it is quite common for companies and/or government arsenals to purchase cartridge brass from third parties. For example, French military headstamps always used to include the code for both the manufacturer of the cartridge and the supplier of the brass, often a private company. Also, not every cartridge manufacturer has its own brass foundry and rolling mill so needs to "buy in" ready made brass strip for making cases. Some companies even buy in ready punched cups from which to make their cases.
Probably the most extreme case is when the Royal Laboratory at Woolwich used cartridge brass made at the government foundry at Cossipore in India. Of course there were special reasons for this involving quality control and compatability with British production, but it is still along way for brass to travel!
Regards
TonyE
Well just as we seem to have got to the bottom of this Geremy has come back to me. He is the author of the book. Below is his answer and under that is my question, which is below that. he has also attached a reference which i will try to attach also.
Hi Paul,
Thank you so much for taking time to contact me regarding my 7.9 Mauser
book. Prior to WW2, it was common for countries to manufacture ammunition
and individual components for export to customer countries (Spanish Civil
War, Sweden, England, Germany, etc. are common examples). Kynoch did
manufacture cases for Poland with the Polish eagle on the headstamp as
shown in the book. This is detailed in Curtis Steinhauer's "Cartridge
Headstamp Identification Guide" software (see Appendix #4 in my book). I
have also attached a screenshot of this as proof to this email. This wold
be a very rare headstamp to find in the United States. Regarding good
cartridge headstamp identification resources, I would recommend the
following in order of preference:
Curtis Steinhauer's "Cartridge Headstamp Identifiation Guide" (CD
Software) - an excellent, 99.9% all inclusive resource
"Cartridge Headstamp Guide" by H.P. White and B.D. Munhall - older book,
out of print and 85% accurate. It was printed in the 60's before a great
deal was known.
These will help you greatly if you collect. I really envy you being able
to metal detect in Europe. I would bet that you have found some real
gems. Thanks again for contacting me. I hope you enjoyed the book. If
so, please leave me positive feedback on Amazon if that is where you
purchased it. I am working on Volume #2, but that will be a year or two
away. Take care. -Ger
> Hi Geremy
>
>
> Altho I am new to headstamps collecting I have been Metal Detecting for a
> long time and all over Europe, I used to find countless rounds. I saved a
> few but it soon became just another bullet!
>
>
> However I have started looking at some of the rounds I have found, and
> bought your book to help me id them. Now I have read your book cover to
> cover twice, but one thing I can not sort out in my head, and I hope you
> can shine some light on it for me. The book....7.9x57 Mauser Ammunition
> for the collector.
>
>
> Under the section Polish 7.9x57 (chapter18) you show two headstamps and
> are named as Kynoch and Fraget Headstamps. above that there is a list of
> case manufacturers and you have the the "K" as Kynock England. So does
> that mean that Kynock made cases for the 7.9 and they were put together
> somewere else or they made the bullet. If so could you give me your source
> of this info.
>
>
> Hope you dont mind me asking.
>
>
> Many thanks
>
>
> Paul.
>
>
> PS...do you know of any books for reference for early mauser headstamps?
Hi Paul,
Thank you so much for taking time to contact me regarding my 7.9 Mauser
book. Prior to WW2, it was common for countries to manufacture ammunition
and individual components for export to customer countries (Spanish Civil
War, Sweden, England, Germany, etc. are common examples). Kynoch did
manufacture cases for Poland with the Polish eagle on the headstamp as
shown in the book. This is detailed in Curtis Steinhauer's "Cartridge
Headstamp Identification Guide" software (see Appendix #4 in my book). I
have also attached a screenshot of this as proof to this email. This wold
be a very rare headstamp to find in the United States. Regarding good
cartridge headstamp identification resources, I would recommend the
following in order of preference:
Curtis Steinhauer's "Cartridge Headstamp Identifiation Guide" (CD
Software) - an excellent, 99.9% all inclusive resource
"Cartridge Headstamp Guide" by H.P. White and B.D. Munhall - older book,
out of print and 85% accurate. It was printed in the 60's before a great
deal was known.
These will help you greatly if you collect. I really envy you being able
to metal detect in Europe. I would bet that you have found some real
gems. Thanks again for contacting me. I hope you enjoyed the book. If
so, please leave me positive feedback on Amazon if that is where you
purchased it. I am working on Volume #2, but that will be a year or two
away. Take care. -Ger
> Hi Geremy
>
>
> Altho I am new to headstamps collecting I have been Metal Detecting for a
> long time and all over Europe, I used to find countless rounds. I saved a
> few but it soon became just another bullet!
>
>
> However I have started looking at some of the rounds I have found, and
> bought your book to help me id them. Now I have read your book cover to
> cover twice, but one thing I can not sort out in my head, and I hope you
> can shine some light on it for me. The book....7.9x57 Mauser Ammunition
> for the collector.
>
>
> Under the section Polish 7.9x57 (chapter18) you show two headstamps and
> are named as Kynoch and Fraget Headstamps. above that there is a list of
> case manufacturers and you have the the "K" as Kynock England. So does
> that mean that Kynock made cases for the 7.9 and they were put together
> somewere else or they made the bullet. If so could you give me your source
> of this info.
>
>
> Hope you dont mind me asking.
>
>
> Many thanks
>
>
> Paul.
>
>
> PS...do you know of any books for reference for early mauser headstamps?
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
That Kynoch supplied cartridge brass, either as strip or possibly cups, to the Polish government seems entirely logical given the information we now have. Similarly, Fraget, being a large cutlers would have had smelting facilities and so could supply brass for cartridge making.
However, I find it hard to believe that Kynoch produced complete cases for Karmenia to load. I have been through many of the Kynoch order books of the period and cannot recall ever seeing an order for just cases from an overseas customer. Also the headstamp does not look Kynoch to me. Subjective I know, but based on over fifty years experience.
If Kynoch did produce cases (and I think it is a big "if") then there would have been a case drawing. I have several hundred Kynoch drawings and certainly do not have one for a Polish 7.92mm. The Kynoch drawing archive of nearly 9000 drawings is held at the Birmingham Proof House and I have a copy of the index for the archive. I have just been through it again and there is no Polish 7.92mm drawing. Turkish, Persian, Argentinian, Yugoslavian, Portuguese and Chinese 7.92mm, yes, but no Polish.
I realise it is impossible to prove a negative, but the lack of a drawing is strong evidence that Kynoch did not produce cases but supplied cartridge brass.
What we need to resolve this are primary sources, either from Kynoch or Poland. Quoting Curtis Steinhauer's list is simply another secondary source and means nothing. If I had to chose from the sources currently available I would go with the information given in the Polish book which quotes Kynoch as a metal supplier, as that is as near to a primary source as we have at present.
Regards
TonyE
However, I find it hard to believe that Kynoch produced complete cases for Karmenia to load. I have been through many of the Kynoch order books of the period and cannot recall ever seeing an order for just cases from an overseas customer. Also the headstamp does not look Kynoch to me. Subjective I know, but based on over fifty years experience.
If Kynoch did produce cases (and I think it is a big "if") then there would have been a case drawing. I have several hundred Kynoch drawings and certainly do not have one for a Polish 7.92mm. The Kynoch drawing archive of nearly 9000 drawings is held at the Birmingham Proof House and I have a copy of the index for the archive. I have just been through it again and there is no Polish 7.92mm drawing. Turkish, Persian, Argentinian, Yugoslavian, Portuguese and Chinese 7.92mm, yes, but no Polish.
I realise it is impossible to prove a negative, but the lack of a drawing is strong evidence that Kynoch did not produce cases but supplied cartridge brass.
What we need to resolve this are primary sources, either from Kynoch or Poland. Quoting Curtis Steinhauer's list is simply another secondary source and means nothing. If I had to chose from the sources currently available I would go with the information given in the Polish book which quotes Kynoch as a metal supplier, as that is as near to a primary source as we have at present.
Regards
TonyE
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
As I do not have the Curtis Steinhauer headstamp DVD that Mr.Chubbuck rates so highly I thought I would have a look at the website here:
http://www.cartridge-corner.com/cdrom.htm
if you scroll down the page you will see a screen print from his program showing four headstamps from the "M" section.
The first (M12) is a British WWI .303 made by Nobel Industries, Manchester. He states this was a subsidiary of Dynamit Nobel in Germany and was taken over by the British government in WWI. This is completely wrong. Nobel Industries was part of Alfred Nobel's Swedish empire, quite separate from Dynamit Nobel in Germany. The company was not taken over and in 1918 went on the merge with the other British ammunition companies to form Explosive Trades ltd which became ICI in 1926.
The second (M13) is a Kynoch headstamp from 1881 which includes "M79". Steinhauer states that this refers to the 6.5mm Roumanian Mannlicher rifle when in fact it refers to the 11.43 Roumanian Peabody. If he had done the most basic of research he would have discovered that the 6.5mm Mannlicher was not adopted until 1893 so is the M93.
Two erroneous entries out of four is hardly the 99.9% completeness that Mr.Chubbuck attributes to the data. (especially in an advertisement for the DVD)
I am not simply being mean and picking holes in that data, but illustrating the dangers of accepting unattributable secondary sources as gospel.
Regards
TonyE
http://www.cartridge-corner.com/cdrom.htm
if you scroll down the page you will see a screen print from his program showing four headstamps from the "M" section.
The first (M12) is a British WWI .303 made by Nobel Industries, Manchester. He states this was a subsidiary of Dynamit Nobel in Germany and was taken over by the British government in WWI. This is completely wrong. Nobel Industries was part of Alfred Nobel's Swedish empire, quite separate from Dynamit Nobel in Germany. The company was not taken over and in 1918 went on the merge with the other British ammunition companies to form Explosive Trades ltd which became ICI in 1926.
The second (M13) is a Kynoch headstamp from 1881 which includes "M79". Steinhauer states that this refers to the 6.5mm Roumanian Mannlicher rifle when in fact it refers to the 11.43 Roumanian Peabody. If he had done the most basic of research he would have discovered that the 6.5mm Mannlicher was not adopted until 1893 so is the M93.
Two erroneous entries out of four is hardly the 99.9% completeness that Mr.Chubbuck attributes to the data. (especially in an advertisement for the DVD)
I am not simply being mean and picking holes in that data, but illustrating the dangers of accepting unattributable secondary sources as gospel.
Regards
TonyE
I would also like to thank you for your comments. As an engineer i realize the fundamental principle of "primary sources". It is fortunate for the collecting community that we have members who have acess to primary sources (or at least as close as possible to primary sources). Thank you again.
Kynoch and Mauser
I found this on a US site selling old ammunition. Does this throw any more light on the debate? .....paul.
7.92x57mm (8x57) Mauser, copper plated steel full metal jacket, brass primer with purple annulus,
headstamp K5 45 IIZ, made by The Kynoch factory at Kidderminster, Worcestershire, England
and taken from a crate dated March 29, 1945, produced for use in the Besa machine gun
I found this on a US site selling old ammunition. Does this throw any more light on the debate? .....paul.
7.92x57mm (8x57) Mauser, copper plated steel full metal jacket, brass primer with purple annulus,
headstamp K5 45 IIZ, made by The Kynoch factory at Kidderminster, Worcestershire, England
and taken from a crate dated March 29, 1945, produced for use in the Besa machine gun
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