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75 Krupp unknown
- Thread starter bombista
- Start date
wingsofwrath
Well-Known Member
Well, the most obvious candidate is the 7,5 cm Gebirgskanone Krupp M.04 L/14. This particular gun was used by the Turks and the Bulgarians.
What are the dimensions of the cartridge case? Because if it is either Turkish or Bulgarian, it should be 75x117.5mmR90
Another, less likely possibility is the Dutch Navy 7,5cm Krupp L/13 landing gun, which uses a 75X169mmR90 cartridge.
What are the dimensions of the cartridge case? Because if it is either Turkish or Bulgarian, it should be 75x117.5mmR90
Another, less likely possibility is the Dutch Navy 7,5cm Krupp L/13 landing gun, which uses a 75X169mmR90 cartridge.
Hi All
A small contribution to the mill 
Schaubild für die 7, 5 cm Gebirgskanone L/14
Geschoßgewicht 5, 3 kg, Anfangsgeschwindigkeit 300 m/sec, Ladung 0,...
Schaubild für die 7, 5 cm Gebirgskanone L/14 - (Krupp) Kriegsministerium
um 1915 Umschlag mit einer Seite eingeklebtem Text und eingeklebter Falttafel - ca. 12 x 17 (Tafel ausgeklappt ca. 49,5 x 32) - Sprache(n): Deutsch Leinen seh…
www.buchfreund.de
75x118 case used in different mountain guns.
first observed (for me) was made by DWM in 1899 for the early Erhardt (later Rheinmetall) mountain guns.
Krupp mountain gun with this case was the 7,5cm Mod 1904, adpted by Peru, Turkey, Bulgaria (some source mentions as mod 1905), Switzerland as mod 1906. Other nations bought just few battery for test guns.
Guns differs from weight, range and elevation.
best regards
first observed (for me) was made by DWM in 1899 for the early Erhardt (later Rheinmetall) mountain guns.
Krupp mountain gun with this case was the 7,5cm Mod 1904, adpted by Peru, Turkey, Bulgaria (some source mentions as mod 1905), Switzerland as mod 1906. Other nations bought just few battery for test guns.
Guns differs from weight, range and elevation.
best regards
wingsofwrath
Well-Known Member
By the way, do you have a plan or at least actual case dimensions for 75x118mmR90? Because I know for sure we used it in Romania for the Krupp Mountain Gun Md.1914 (that's where my snippet of plan comes from. I didn't give the whole thing because the shell is an entirely different beast altogether and completely irrelevant for our discussion today), but I've never seen a case from one.
your pic show a bottle necked case,
this topic show the straight one
bottle necked 75x118 case used in 7,5cm M13 L/14 used by Chile, Austro Hungarian, Germany, Turkey and other nations.
Case marked with krupp code 835 made by Berndorf (krupp controlled) adn DWM
best regards
this topic show the straight one
bottle necked 75x118 case used in 7,5cm M13 L/14 used by Chile, Austro Hungarian, Germany, Turkey and other nations.
Case marked with krupp code 835 made by Berndorf (krupp controlled) adn DWM
best regards
7,5cm x118
Looking for information on codes on Berndorf and Karlsruhe cases
Hello, here the well know 835 code 75x118 used in 7,5cm M13 L/14 Krupp mountain gun. Is it correct? regards
www.bocn.co.uk
wingsofwrath
Well-Known Member
Hmm, I had forgotten that other thread, but this definitely seems to suggest the two almost identical cases, one straight-tapered and one necked were different products, since @Hoeksel says the straight one has code "73" for Bulgaria and we know the necked one had code "835".
Also, it seems likely Krupp started by having mountain guns with the straight tapered case and then, at one point, switched to the other necked case, possibly to aid in extraction, or for better shell retention, we don't know, because the Romanian document from the 1930s gives the gun that uses this shell casing as "75mm Krupp Mountain gun Md.1914" and also mentions "German" - now that isn't either here nor there, because this doc is very inconsistent wherever they list the country of origin or the country of adoption and you'd see ammunition for the same Krupp gun listed alternatively as "German" and "Romanian" despite the fact the gun designation doesn't change. Also it's debatable wherever we ever adopted this gun before the war started or if it was all from captures during the war - there are a few documents which suggest we might have gone to Krupp in late 1913 after the Second Balkan war and bought whatever they had in stock, but some other which suggest the sale never went through, but whatever the case, this suggests this gun was never specifically made for us.
Oh and another thing, I just talked to @Irod7 who can't post at the moment as he's travelling for Easter and he says his ground-found case marked "835" comes from Vrancea, where there can't possibly have been any Bulgarians at all - that area of the front was Romanians and Germans only, not even Austro-Hungarians, which seems to suggest even more this was a Krupp export mountain gun used by the Germans which we acquired through capture.
However, this all poses an even bigger problem, which is that Bulgaria switched to Schneider-Canet guns from 1907 onwards which are specifically stated to use the same ammunition as the Krupp M.1904 guns. So then, when did they acquire a Krupp gun with the necked "835" case?
Because what that says to me is the "835" case simply can't be Bulgarian because they were already using the straight walled tapered one, code "73" and there was no reason to change.
So while "835" is definitely an internal Krupp code for this particular case for mountain guns, there's absolutely no indication this has anything to do with Bulgaria at all, specifically since @Hoeksel's own paper states that cases marked "835" have popped up as far afield as Spain.
So if anything, this made me think even more strongly that the straight tapered casing with this shell as posted by @bombista is the proper Bulgarian one, because, again this is the drawing of it from Bulgarian docs - notice no neck and similar shape and fuze, etc.
Also, it seems likely Krupp started by having mountain guns with the straight tapered case and then, at one point, switched to the other necked case, possibly to aid in extraction, or for better shell retention, we don't know, because the Romanian document from the 1930s gives the gun that uses this shell casing as "75mm Krupp Mountain gun Md.1914" and also mentions "German" - now that isn't either here nor there, because this doc is very inconsistent wherever they list the country of origin or the country of adoption and you'd see ammunition for the same Krupp gun listed alternatively as "German" and "Romanian" despite the fact the gun designation doesn't change. Also it's debatable wherever we ever adopted this gun before the war started or if it was all from captures during the war - there are a few documents which suggest we might have gone to Krupp in late 1913 after the Second Balkan war and bought whatever they had in stock, but some other which suggest the sale never went through, but whatever the case, this suggests this gun was never specifically made for us.
Oh and another thing, I just talked to @Irod7 who can't post at the moment as he's travelling for Easter and he says his ground-found case marked "835" comes from Vrancea, where there can't possibly have been any Bulgarians at all - that area of the front was Romanians and Germans only, not even Austro-Hungarians, which seems to suggest even more this was a Krupp export mountain gun used by the Germans which we acquired through capture.
However, this all poses an even bigger problem, which is that Bulgaria switched to Schneider-Canet guns from 1907 onwards which are specifically stated to use the same ammunition as the Krupp M.1904 guns. So then, when did they acquire a Krupp gun with the necked "835" case?
Because what that says to me is the "835" case simply can't be Bulgarian because they were already using the straight walled tapered one, code "73" and there was no reason to change.
So while "835" is definitely an internal Krupp code for this particular case for mountain guns, there's absolutely no indication this has anything to do with Bulgaria at all, specifically since @Hoeksel's own paper states that cases marked "835" have popped up as far afield as Spain.
So if anything, this made me think even more strongly that the straight tapered casing with this shell as posted by @bombista is the proper Bulgarian one, because, again this is the drawing of it from Bulgarian docs - notice no neck and similar shape and fuze, etc.
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1.Weltkrieg, " 7,5cm Gebirgskanone L/14" Krupp AG, Essen Ruhr 1915 mi
Militärische Antiquitäten Emig 1.Weltkrieg, " 7,5cm Gebirgskanone L/14" Krupp AG, Essen Ruhr 1915 mit 99 Seiten und 19 Falttafeln in Neue Artikel 14.08.24,
www.kpemig.de
Just to add, the non-Bulgarian straight 75x117R88 has Krupp code 40 (e.g., China, Ottoman). From my research I concluded Bulgarian cases have unique Krupp numbers, no clue yet why that is.
Also not mentioned yet but the rim diameter (very important to avoid discussions about it being the same gun) for the straight and necked case differ; 40/73 = 88 mm and 835 = 87 mm.
Also not mentioned yet but the rim diameter (very important to avoid discussions about it being the same gun) for the straight and necked case differ; 40/73 = 88 mm and 835 = 87 mm.
wingsofwrath
Well-Known Member
Glad to have confirmation on the exact rim diameter. Speaking of, is there any difference between the 75x117R88 Krupp code 40 and the one with Krupp code 73, or can they be considered the same model, considering they are grouped together in your table?
I'm asking because I think the only mountain case the Bulgarians ever adopted "natively" is "73" (s) with "40" (s) being the same case in Ottoman and/or Chinese service and they only had the "835" (n) through later transfers from the Germans during the war, since a few different German Gebirgs-Artillerie-Abteilungs were active on the Macedonian front starting in 1915 and not only are they originally equipped with the 7.5 cm Geb.Kan. L/16 Rheinmetall and the 7.5 cm Geb.Kan. L/14 Krupp (both of which use the necked "835" case) but after some of them get reassigned to the Western Front they are also reequipped with 7.5 cm Geb.Kan Skoda M.15s, which would suggest their original armament was left in Bulgaria.
I'm asking because I think the only mountain case the Bulgarians ever adopted "natively" is "73" (s) with "40" (s) being the same case in Ottoman and/or Chinese service and they only had the "835" (n) through later transfers from the Germans during the war, since a few different German Gebirgs-Artillerie-Abteilungs were active on the Macedonian front starting in 1915 and not only are they originally equipped with the 7.5 cm Geb.Kan. L/16 Rheinmetall and the 7.5 cm Geb.Kan. L/14 Krupp (both of which use the necked "835" case) but after some of them get reassigned to the Western Front they are also reequipped with 7.5 cm Geb.Kan Skoda M.15s, which would suggest their original armament was left in Bulgaria.
What is known about the 7.5cm G.k. (L/13; L /14 ; L/17,3) Krupp in general :
Are there ? versions of the cartridge or is there less cartridge versions and is it solved by the lower weight of the powder?
Version from 1913 in two versions 300m/s and 350m/s. (has different cartridges - apparently yes)
It will be interesting to find the factory instructions for the gun and compare them ...
Akon
Book :
Sign: I 62.956 ; 7,5cm Gebirgskanone L/14, Essen ,1916 , 144 s. 19 Taf .
? ; 7,5cm Gebirgskanone L/14, Essen , 1915, 99 s. , 19 Taf.
7,5cm Gebirgskanone L/? (C/83-C/89) https://www.lovettartillery.com/pics/GER_KRUPP_EXPORT_Artillerie.pdf
Are there ? versions of the cartridge or is there less cartridge versions and is it solved by the lower weight of the powder?
Version from 1913 in two versions 300m/s and 350m/s. (has different cartridges - apparently yes)
It will be interesting to find the factory instructions for the gun and compare them ...
Akon
Book :
Sign: I 62.956 ; 7,5cm Gebirgskanone L/14, Essen ,1916 , 144 s. 19 Taf .
? ; 7,5cm Gebirgskanone L/14, Essen , 1915, 99 s. , 19 Taf.
7,5cm Gebirgskanone L/? (C/83-C/89) https://www.lovettartillery.com/pics/GER_KRUPP_EXPORT_Artillerie.pdf
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