85mm BR 365/365K

[nathanieljr]

Hi all,
Looking for info on the development of Russian 85mm ammo, so if anyone knows any good books/documents please tell!

What I cant work out is why the Soviets used both a flat nosed APBC round (BR 365) and a round nosed AP (BR 365K) through the war years and beyond, when they appeared to perform very similarly. Today the 365K is far more commonly found as an inert round (possibly more common post war), the APBC round being much rarer, but it appears that both were widely used at the time and post war.
I seem to remember hearing that the K was developed to better counter the flat front armour of the Tiger, but if that was the case then why did it continue post war, when it primarily faced sloped armour? In other calibres, such as 122, 152 and 100mm the first shells were plain AP nosed, then superceded by APBC, and finally by APCBC, yet the 85mm seemed to use a plain nosed AP for a long time.
ANY info much appreciated!

 

[Nabob]

The attached penetration table is for the 85mm anti-aircraft guns model 1939 and 1944.
The penetration of the "K" projectile is better or equal up to 500m even on 60 degree sloped armour.

One of the considerations could be shorter length for manipulation in a tank turret, easier manufacture process and better damage resistance against the long balistic cap of the regular UBR-365 round. (this is my own theory not based on any hard data).

Similar development was also in 57 mm caliber with the UBR-271K.
Czech firing table from 1949 does not list the UBR-271K fot the 57 mm AT gun model 1943. The copy from 1954 does.

I wonder what year were the "K" rounds introduced in both calibers.

Bob

 

[M8owner]

I love Russian 85mm ammunition, but I have so little documentation on it. There are Russian manuals in the download section of this site with information on Russian 76, 122, and 152mm ammunition. I also have the manuals on these Russian guns; however, I have never even seen so much as an image from any Russian manual for the 85mm ammunition. Does anyone have a Russian manual on the 85mm ammunition?

 

[sgdbdr]

Hi

There are 85mm D44 (85-мм дивизионная пушка д-44), 1983 and 85mm D48 (Руководство службы 85-мм противотанковая пушка Д-48), 1957 both available online



Regards,

S.

 

[M8owner]

May I request that you provide the links to those sites please?

 

[SG500]

I love Russian 85mm ammunition, but I have so little documentation on it. There are Russian manuals in the download section of this site with information on Russian 76, 122, and 152mm ammunition. I also have the manuals on these Russian guns; however, I have never even seen so much as an image from any Russian manual for the 85mm ammunition. Does anyone have a Russian manual on the 85mm ammunition?

This is good up to 57mm (I realise you were asking about 85mm) but it is a wonderful resource if you need info on smaller calibres.
http://russianammo.org/Russian_Ammunition_Page_TOC.html
Dave.

 

[sgdbdr]

Here is one
http://farposst.ru/1274496222-85_mm_divizionnaya_pushka_d_44__rukovodstvo_sluzhby.html

 

[nathanieljr]

Hi all, thanks for the responses.
Regarding ease of handling in a turret, its important but I cant think that they would have sacrificed heavily sloped and long range penetration just for that, and they didnt do it in larger calibers (eg 100mm BR 412B and D are longer than the original)
Thanks for the table though Nabob! Sgdbdr that link doesnt seem to work for me, is there anythnig in the D44 manual about it?
I have heard that the K round was issued to T-34/85s first, and AA guns later, suggesting that it was considered a more valuable round. This would fit with its increased availability today and clear long production run post war. Its the round normally found in US cold war documents, and the round the Yugoslavians were last producing iirc. But somehow it seems to remain something of a mystery as to when, why, where or who requested and developed it.
Ive been trawling through books on the t34 85 lookng for snippetss, but nothing so far.

 

[sgdbdr]

Hi,

Apparently, the link I provided is not working anymore, and the download section doesn't accept files other than pdf larger than 20Mo

Here are links to the files on my Google Drive :

85mm D44 (85-мм дивизионная пушка д-44) (file is 6Mo)
WARNING : file is in DJVU format, you'll need WinDjView (http://www.djvu.org/resources/windjview/) or STDUViewer to read it (http://www.stdutility.com/stduviewer.html)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uR0_molAQV1x-o1W17c1KiA8TeGTWoGI

85mm D48 (Руководство службы 85-мм противотанковая пушка Д-48) (file is 390Mo)
PDF file
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hXW682YJBLppbbhl5yMKk-xHZ3AFhTme

Regards,

S.

 

[nathanieljr]

Thanks sgdbdr, only seems to have the later APCBC ammo listed though.