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9 cm german he & shrapnel twin driving band

S

starshell

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi chaps,
Would anyone have any information about the First war 9cm German HE & Shrapnel variations. I'm trying to find out more about my model, which has 2 driving bands and pretty thick walls. Thought I had some info, but only have 10.5 upwards to hand.
Please excuse my ignorance, but were these shells produced purely as shrapnel or were HE versions made too?

(Please note, the Gr.Z.04 is stuck in there just on a whim whilst I clean the threads up......)
Greatly appreciate any info.
Thanks in advance!
D
View attachment 118293View attachment 118295View attachment 118294
 
Hello,

-HE 9cm Gr14 (fuzed grz14)
-HE 9cm Gr14A (fuzed HZ14)
-HE segments 9cm Gr82 (fuzed Grz82)
-HE 9cm Gr88 (fuzed DoppZ91)

-Shrapnel 15 (Doppz92 series)
-Shrapnel 82 (Doppz86)
-Shrapnel 91 (Doppz91) : concave base

Regards

HE Family :

9cm gr14 1.jpg9cm gr14 2.jpg
9cm gr14a.jpg
9cm gr82.jpg
9cm Gr88.jpg

Shrapnel Family :


Shrap 15 1.jpgShrap 15 2.jpg
shrap 82.jpg
shrap 91 1.jpgshrap 91 2.jpg
 
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looks like a 9 cm Gr. 88 with wrong paint. Or does it have a screwed base?
 
Many thanks MINENAZ16,
I had a feeling you might respond, you've solved quite a few of my questions in the past! My gratitude once again.
Would a Gr.Z.04 be the correct fuse for this projectile, being a HE?
Lastly, do you know of any official technical drawings that might exist of this particular round?
Regards,
D

Hi Alpini,
Thanks for the input.
No screwed base on this one, solid all round.
Many thanks!
 
Starshell, I think you posted as I was editing my post with new diagrams.
As Alpini said, your shell is maybe a Gr88 with wrong fuze.
 
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without screwed base it's clearly model 1888. The correct fuze is a Dopp.Z. C/88 (nearly impossible to get) or a Dopp.Z. C/91 with Zündladung (Gaine) C/92

Btw. the technical drawing of the 9 cm Gr. 88 which MinenAZ16 posted is a little bit wrong. The fuze tread is drawn in to large diameter.
 
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MINENAZ16 said:
Starshell, I think you posted as I was editing my post with new diagrams.
As Alpini said, your shell is maybe a Gr88 with wrong fuze.
Click to expand...

Thanks a million for the drawings MINENAZ16, they've helped a lot. I think Alpini has nailed it. Judging by the drawings and dimensions, it looks like a Gr88 I have. I'll amend the fuse...
Appreciate both your help a lot.
Regards,
D
 
Alpini said:
without screwed base it's clearly model 1888. The correct fuze is a Dopp.Z. C/88 (nearly impossible to get) or a Dopp.Z. C/91 with Zündladung (Gaine) C/92

Btw. the technical drawing of the 9 cm Gr. 88 which MinenAZ16 posted is a little bit wrong. The fuze tread is drawn in to large diameter.
Click to expand...
.

I did wonder about the fuse socket
The shell I have has a consistent wall thickness up to the fuse socket, so much like the Gr88. I guess the search begins for a nice Dopp.Z. C/91 then....
Silly question, and I think I know what the answer will be, but I guess the designation Gr88 indicates 'Granate 1888'? As mentioned, I don't have a great deal of info on German ordnance.
Thanks again!
Regards!
 
Thanks Alpini,
Just one last question if you don't mind. The Dopp.z.88/91 are classed as time & percussion fuses if I'm right.
Am I right then in saying that on my shell, it could have been used as a basic percussion fuse, or could it have been timed to detonate a certain distance in hundreds of meteres, similiar to a shrapnel shell.
I thought these shells only had percussion fuses only.
Many thanks!
Dylan
 
Just to offer more info:
The base has K.G.9 stamped in the base along with 'PH', '4' AND 'N'.
Alpini, I'm changing my initial thoughts about it being a GR88. The driving band distance measures 15mm from base, unlike the 22mm for the GR88, so its pointing to a GR14. Also, under strong light the faint line of the adapter can just be seen, but the tolerance is very tight.
Thanks for your continued help everyone!
Cheers!
Dylan
 
starshell said:
The driving band distance measures 15mm from base, unlike the 22mm for the GR88, so its pointing to a GR14. Also, under strong light the faint line of the adapter can just be seen, but the tolerance is very tight.
Click to expand...

There is a "one piece" version of the 9 cm Gr.14 with a 55mm thread for the K.Z. 14 fuze
The lower driving band is 15mm from the base and the upper driving band can be 5 or 10mm wide

Regards,
Pascal
 
starshell said:
Just to offer more info:
The base has K.G.9 stamped in the base along with 'PH', '4' AND 'N'.
Alpini, I'm changing my initial thoughts about it being a GR88. The driving band distance measures 15mm from base, unlike the 22mm for the GR88, so its pointing to a GR14. Also, under strong light the faint line of the adapter can just be seen, but the tolerance is very tight.
Thanks for your continued help everyone!
Cheers!
Dylan
Click to expand...

The 22 mm from the french drawing ist wrong, official this distance meassures 16 mm (like all other 9 cm shell for C/73 or C/73/88 gun)!

Btw.:

-the british Notes on German shells has the same failure (but that's no wonder as both documents are based on the same data).
-the documentation of the Belot's has taken over this failure too - they were using the same drawing from british or french "notes"
-and also the german documents from author "H. Katthöfer" has the same failure

All four documents are also have the fuze thread drawn to large. Four books - one wrong source...

If your shell has an adapter it would be visible clearly inside the shell. But for 99% it's made from one piece and remains a Gr.88.

@silent knight: his shell has a W45,8 x 1/10" thread. So it's not a K.Z. and also not a H.Z. compatible thread, only old Doppelzünder will screw in. And with "K.G." (Kanonen-Gießerei - Spandau) manufacturer stamp it couldn't be a modern shell, this stamp was used only on old shells.
 
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My wrong again...What I thought was a hairline join for an adapter is in fact the faint brush lines from the paint. Looking inside, I cannot see a visible join either. The fuse socket width is 45mm, and will accept a Gr.Z.04 with no problems (but obviously the wrong fuse).
So I guess this is a Gr88 after all.
Could any one explain the benefits of a time & percussion fuse for this model. Why not just use a percussion/impact fuse for HE. Or am I right in thinking this shell could also be used as a crude 'shrapnel' if used with a time fuse if needed?
Many thanks!
Dylan
 
I have attached two pictures of the one I have. It is clear from the pictures that this is a two piece construction but you cannot see that it is when looking at the fuze socket. This is the same model as the one starshell has which I believe is a Gr 14. On his the paint is quite thick and covers what you can see is a very fine joint. Always keen to learn!

S4200055.jpgS4200056.jpg
 
Burney Davis said:
I have attached two pictures of the one I have. It is clear from the pictures that this is a two piece construction but you cannot see that it is when looking at the fuze socket. This is the same model as the one starshell has which I believe is a Gr 14. On his the paint is quite thick and covers what you can see is a very fine joint. Always keen to learn!
Click to expand...

Yours is a 9 cm Gr. 14, but it's not the same as starshell's shell. You should both take photos from inside - then you'll see the difference. Your 9 cm Gr. 14 has a cavity with a much larger diameter than the fuze thread diameter and an edge at the bottom of the "fuze adapter". The cavity of the 9 cm Gr.88 from starshell has nearly the same diameter like the fuze thread (he already wrote) and the fuze thread is going over smooth into the cavity.
 
Hi Chaps,
I've drawn an exact profile of the inside of my shell to try and clear up any doubt. The inside diameter is (going by the thread width) approx 46-48mm, no more, and maintains this diameter downwards to almost the base, at which point there is a VERY slight 'step' (prob 1mm) which continues about 10mm to the base.
(The hole in the ogive is for the fuse securing screw).
Also noticed on the ogive, the stampings in letters approx 10mm, 'CG' or C6'?
Thanks again for all your help!
DylanView attachment 118363View attachment 118364View attachment 118365View attachment 118366
 
Well done profile drawing. It perfectly fits for model 88. It's the second model which had the picric acid filling in a cardboard container. The very first models did not have the slight step inside and had the picric acid filled directly in. They didn't know about the dangers at this early time. The shells with the small step had a slightly larger cavity to add some space for the cardboard and some wax.

The stamping should be either "GG" or "KG".
 
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Thanks Alpini.
Interesting information! Do you know what the "GG" means on the ogive? Maybe an inspection mark?
Thanks again,
Dylan
 
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