9mm x 19 Subsonic

[SpudGun]

Is this round an experimental rd, were many rds loaded ?

Thanks.

I've been playing with my new Macro lens

 

[smle2009]

Hi Sudgun,
RG did use this colour tip for in house 'trials' which could be for anything,ie new primer,new propellant ect. Very hard to find out what exactly the trial would have been for as the rounds were not marked to tie up with any paperwork.
I do have a 7.62 Nato round with the same colour tip..RG (+) 62 L2A2.
Macro's working well mate

Cheers
Tony

 

[weberoed]

Don't know about this one, but the current 9mm issued to specops here inthe US is a 147gr subsonic silver tip, made by Oiln Corp. I have 3 boxes of them, there are actually identical to the 147gr BlackTalon they use to make, just a color difference of the bullet

 

[TonyE]

I suppose that technically it is an experimental as it is not a regular sealed design, but that round may have seen limited issue to Special Forces. I don't know how many were made, but probably a typical lot of perhaps 100,000?

It has a 150 grain flat based bullet as shown in the centre of theattached picture. The left hand bullet is a normal 115 grain Mark 2z and the right hand bullet a 170 grain boat-tail from a 1956 dated RG round. There have been a number of different British flat and boat-tailed sub sonic loadings since the end of WW2 weighing 150, 160, 165 and 170 grains. Some in 1945 dated Blackpole cases were almost certainly loaded in the 1948-49 period.

They are usually identified by a coloured spot of paint on the base of the case, but some have a special headstamp like yours.

Sorry about the quality of the picture but it was a quick composite I put together for this post.

The purple paint, actually officially called "violet", is used on all types of munitions to indicate the experimental nature of the store, not just on small arms ammunition.

Regards
TonyE

 

[SpudGun]

In 1971 (date of this rd) there would have been in service: Welrod, Sten Mk2 S, Sten Mk5 S and the L34A1. But all the weapons mentioned have silencers and use normal 9mm rds, the silencer drops the bullet velocity to below the speed of sound. So a subsonic rd isn't needed. Wonder what it was for.

 

[smle2009]

Sorry about my dumb post,I didn't realise that the headstamp was as above,I thought it was a description:tinysmile_shy_t:


Tony

 

[TonyE]

I understand that the trials started in the immediate post war period when the Ordnance Board decided that a better solution to the Mark 2S Sten was to have a detachable muzzle attachment for the normal weapon and use reduced charge cartridges. The silenced Patchett trials of 1946/7 used 1945 dated Hirwaun cases with normal bullets but reduced charges, identified by coloured extractor grooves. I have the red (3.3 grns) and purple (1.8 grns) but not the green (3.7 grns).

Shortly after this it was decided that a standard charge but a heavy bullet was a better solution and so the heavy bullet trials started. They must have been of some importance as they continued from 1947, through the fifties and sixties until at least 1971 as we can see.

In 1961/62 a special case was designed (DD/E/20436) which had a longer internal parallel portion to accommodate the heavy flat based 170 grain bullet. It had a RG 62 2z headstamp.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Stray]

In 1971 (date of this rd) there would have been in service: Welrod, Sten Mk2 S, Sten Mk5 S and the L34A1. But all the weapons mentioned have silencers and use normal 9mm rds, the silencer drops the bullet velocity to below the speed of sound. So a subsonic rd isn't needed. Wonder what it was for.

The integral suppressors will drop regular rounds below the speed of sound, muzzle mounted ones require the round be subsonic to begin with.

Maybe for the Browning Hi-power? Subsonic round with a heavy bullet in order to cycle the action?

 

[SpudGun]

The integral suppressors will drop regular rounds below the speed of sound, muzzle mounted ones require the round be subsonic to begin with.

Maybe for the Browning Hi-power? Subsonic round with a heavy bullet in order to cycle the action?

As far as I know there weren't any suppressors made for the Browning, at least while was still in the Army. I spent a couple of weeks in total trying to get a suppressor from an MP5SD to work on a Browning High Power. I could never get it to cycle the slide reliably. In the end I modified a .22 AR7 Semi Auto Survival Rifle, cut the barrel short, added a PH Silencer, made it Full Auto, fitted a pistol grip to it and swapped the original mag for a 30 rounder. Much fun was had test firing it.

 

[Anders]

Don't know about this one, but the current 9mm issued to specops here inthe US is a 147gr subsonic silver tip, made by Oiln Corp. I have 3 boxes of them, there are actually identical to the 147gr BlackTalon they use to make, just a color difference of the bullet

I can guarantee that the 147 grain Silver Tip has nothing to do with the 147 grain Black Talon what so ever. Besides the Black Talon name was discontinued in 1995, and renamed Ranger Talon. The black Talon was as the name indicates black and the case was nickel platted, but after the name change to Ranger Talon, the projectile was copper colored but also on a nickel platted casing.

The design of the projectile is a whole story for itself. The Silver Tip being a hopeless old school design most often clogging up when shot through every day clothing before entering live tissue. If it does expand as designed, the thin jacket will most often separate from the lead core.

The Black Talon (Ranger Talon) is a genius design with six very sharp petals protruding from the lead center core after expanding. The jacket is made from brass and very rigid, and will add significant permanent damage to soft tissue. Also the jacket is swaged to the lead core and will not separate.