Abbriviation (H) on captuered ammunition

[Antoon]

The German Navy (Kriegsmarine) manual M.Dv.107,74 dated 1942 is about the captured ammunition for the Dutch 7,5 cm Vickers AA-gun.


The following ammunition is mentioned :


7,5 cm Spgr Patr Nr 2 (= the original Dutch HE cartridge No. 2) with the Dutch time fuze No. 7)


7,5 cm Spgr Patr Nr 3 (= the original Dutch HE cartridge No. 3) with Pbr. Z. 41 (H) or mechanical time fuze Nr 5 (Tavaro)


7,5 cm Spgr Patr Nr 3 Deutsche Ladung (= the original Dutch HE shell with German steel cartridge case 36 St (H)) with time fuze Pbr. Z. 41 (H) or Kz 41 (H) or mechanical time fuze Nr 5 (Tavaro). This Tavaro fuze is also used by the Dutch.

7,5 cm Spgr Patr (H) (= German HE shell without tracer with German steel cartridge case 36 St (H))


[FONT=&quot]What is the meaning of the (H). I do not think it is meaning “holland”, because the normal way they write it for captured Dutch material is (h). It is not standing behind the original Dutch cartridges and fuzes, only behind German fabricated ammunition. Am I correct that it is (H) for Heer (Army)? If so, then the other question. Why are these fuzes not in the normal WW-2 German army inventory?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
View attachment 166684View attachment 166685View attachment 166686View attachment 166687View attachment 166688View attachment 166689View attachment 166690[/FONT]

 

[Alpini]

Yes it means "Holland". "Heer" makes no sense because the dutch 7.5 cm Vickers AA was incorporated into the Kriegsmarine. The Kriegsmarine did not use such a unique nomenclature like the Heer/Luftwaffe. Most polish guns not even had a (p) in the designation but:

Norwegian (N)
Russian (R)
Czech (T)
French (Frz), (Fr) and (f)

If we write "Holland" then it would be abbreviated H., if we write "holländisch" then h. Our nouns and names are written upper case.

 

[Antoon]

Yes it means "Holland". "Heer" makes no sense because the dutch 7.5 cm Vickers AA was incorporated into the Kriegsmarine. The Kriegsmarine did not use such a unique nomenclature like the Heer/Luftwaffe. Most polish guns not even had a (p) in the designation but:

Norwegian (N)
Russian (R)
Czech (T)
French (Frz), (Fr) and (f)

If we write "Holland" then it would be abbreviated H., if we write "holländisch" then h. Our nouns and names are written upper case.

Thanks for the reply. But the manual mention the Time Fuze 41 (H) (Pbr.Z. 41 (H)) and Nose Impact Fuze 41 (H) (K.Z. 41 K.Z. (H)). The Dutch had only the Time Fuze No. 7 New Model (Tijdbuis No. 7 N.M.) and Mechanical Time Fuze No. 5 (Mechanische Tijdbuis No. 5) and these are mentioned in the manual without the addition (H)?

 

[Bever]

Reason for the Mechanische Zeitzünder nr. 5 not having this (H) mentioned , while it is also for the 7,5cm Sprgr Nr. 3 , should simply be due to the fact that the Tavaro Nr. 5 is a Swiss fuze. I attached an image of the label that comes with these fuzes in its packaging. 8 stück , Mechanische Zeitzünder nr. 5 (für Brisantgranaten No. 3 der 7,5cm Flak) from 1941.

 

[Hoeksel]

And to add, guo is Hembrug so Dutch made under German occupation.

 

[Bever]

That’s interesting.

Did not know that.

Crazy the image & several more images with boxes for these were the standard Dutch green with gold inside packaging & were all found far in Poland.

 

[Hoeksel]

For me it is a known fact you will find most of these cases in Poland, also 100 % Dutch made. Apparently the Germans moved these guns to what is now Poland. The second biggest finding place is I think a tie between France and The Netherlands. In France you also find enormous amounts of all kinds of Dutch cases including really old guns.

That’s interesting.

Did not know that.

Crazy the image & several more images with boxes for these were the standard Dutch green with gold inside packaging & were all found far in Poland.

 

[Antoon]

That guo is the Dutch AI factory at the Hembrug during German occupation is known to me. Also that the Tavaro fuze is original Swiss made. On 6 May 1940 40.000 complete fuzes and 5000 clockworks where available at the AI-Hembrug.
Have the AI-Hembrug made also the Pbrz. 41(H) and K.Z 41(H) during the German occupation ?????

 

[Alpini]

FN in Herstal made them too during war. And cases by "kct" aka "Etablissement Luchaire" in France

 

[greif]

That guo is the Dutch AI factory at the Hembrug during German occupation is known to me. Also that the Tavaro fuze is original Swiss made. On 6 May 1940 40.000 complete fuzes and 5000 clockworks where available at the AI-Hembrug.
Have the AI-Hembrug made also the Pbrz. 41(H) and K.Z 41(H) during the German occupation ?????

In 1939 AI signed a contract with Tavaro for 65.000 Mtb No. 5, of which 40.000 were delivered before the occupation of Holland. The rest was delivered after may 1940.
In that same contract it was agreed that if AI bought 100.000 Tavaro fuzes, AI would obtain the license rights to produce Tavaro fuzes. The number of 100.000 fuzes was reached, among which were an additional 5000 Mtb No. 5, 5800 Mtb No. 3 for 10 veld, 5500 Mtb No. 4 for 7 veld, 5000 Mtb for 7,5 veld KNIL, 50 mechanical bomb fuzes, 10.000 fuze bodies and 112.000 clockworks. The aim of AI was to produce mechanical time fuzes for replacing all the pyrotechnical time fuzes of the Dutch artillerie. In their fuze factory they only would make the fuze bodies, the clockworks were ordered at the Tavaro factory.

The PBrZ 41 H was produced by AI , the example on the picture is marked guo 42 4C with the acceptance stamp WaA 717.
I don't know if the KZ 41 H was produced by AI. Perhaps Mr. Fuze knows, because he has a mint specimen in his collection.

 

[Alpini]

Do you know why it only had a 20.5 scale instead of 22 sec?

 

[Bever]

I added some images of one , reads the following :

KZ 41 H B guo 12e

Checked several other ones as well , those are all marked KZ 41 H 44 guo

 

[greif]

Do you know why it only had a 20.5 scale instead of 22 sec?

I really don't know. What I do know is that there were troubles with the Vickers version and Dutch version of the Tijdbuis No. 7, because they didn't perform well at higher altitudes. So perhaps there was no need for a 22 sec delay.
After the occupation of Holland the AI factory became part of Rheinmetall-Borsig AG (Diensstelle AI). I found this short overview in the monthly Rh-report of April 1941 about the development of the PBr Z 41 H.

 

[Alpini]

Thank you - very interesting. The 20,5 sec makes sense with the 6000m limit. The problem with with pyrotechnical fuzes in high altitudes was already known in WW1 and different powder compositions were tested without much improvement.