Black Pineapples

[Kilroy was Here]

Anybody have documents, manuals or info exactly when we used the color black on grenades to signify HE / Live grenades? It seems it would have been a very short period between the grey and yellow grenades, sometime in the early-mid-1930's?

I have a black grenade, made by Square G company (Grabler co.) and have seen 4 other square G bodies, all from different sources that were exactly the same as this one, and all 4 had 2 white colored washers.

Anyone possibly have documents or info about the 2 white sealing washers, and why 2 were used? It looks to me they are an asbestos material.

Also interesting to note how close the lot numbers are on these two early M10A1 fuzes on these black and yellow grenades, so they could possibly be from around the same time period....but when exactly?

I know I have heard before the M10A1 was originally to be used as an igniting fuze for EC filled expolsive grenades, but some had a "flash-by" problem and caused a few accidents, so they were supposedly relegated to be used up on training grenades??

All original black grenades I have seen, all have the M10A1 fuzes, and were all G bodies, and as said already, had the 2 white washers. Any special reason why 2 asbestos? washers, or just maybe they were the type washers used by Square G Co.?

 

[Lou]

Ditto

I have often pondered that same question sir.........
Black over Grey M10A1 fuze body mark C 15 Plain red fiber washer.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

I have often pondered that same question sir.........
Black over Grey M10A1 fuze body mark C 15 Plain red fiber washer.

Hey Lou, how's it going in the great land O' cheese? :tinysmile_tongue_t:
Ahh Haa.......another Crane grenade, nice, I like it. Maybe some of those nice "minutes reports" that have answered other pineapple questions will pop up and give us the definitive answer to this "Black" question, and also the odd asbestos? washers

Still got the bargain priced fully complete M48? I hope you did not sell it just to maybe make a few bucks, or trade it away!!

 

[Lou]

Hell yeah I still have it!!!! Proudly on display in the mines and signals section of the ex book case,now inert ordnance case. One of my best pieces.Thanks to you!!!!:tinysmile_grin_t:

Man the suspence is killing me.I hope someone can find those pages....

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Hell yeah I still have it!!!! Proudly on display in the mines and signals section of the ex book case,now inert ordnance case. One of my best pieces.Thanks to you!!!!:tinysmile_grin_t:

Man the suspence is killing me.I hope someone can find those pages....

Good, glad you still have it and it has a good home.

The suspense is killing you??? haha! I just made the post about an hour ago!! :tinysmile_twink_t:

 

[Lou]

You know how I am. Something good pops up and Im like a rabid thirsty weasle,,,, and Ive come to drink from the well of knowlege that is BOCN...

Yeah I know,darn time difference.

Oh,and off topic,but heres where the M48 resides..Safely tucked in its carboard shipping tube,,,,,,

Back to the black grenades!!!!!

 

[Kilroy was Here]

OK, I see the M48 tucked away, very good. I need one of those modified 60mm projectiles like in the front of pic for my M2A3 mine. Let me know please if you see another for sale, or know where I can get one too. I was going to just get a practice 60mm mortar and remove the fins, but would rather have the correct projectile someday if possible.

 

[sgtlynn]

Fragmentation grenades were painted yellow in 1932 so if your black was a live grenade, it had to be before then.. Reference, Basic Field Manual, Vol III Hand and Rifle Grenades, 1932

 

[Fragman]

Hi. Also worth noting is that "short" M10A1 levers have been found in the Guadalcanel area and I've never heard of black pineapples being found there. Cheers

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Fragmentation grenades were painted yellow in 1932 so if your black was a live grenade, it had to be before then.. Reference, Basic Field Manual, Vol III Hand and Rifle Grenades, 1932

Hi, Thanks for looking at your manual and the info.
I'm pretty sure a black grenade was a live frag grenade at some point in the 1930's?? I don't think the grenade could be from before 1932 with an M10A1 fuze. All five I've seen, and all 5 from different sellers-sources were exactly the same as the one that I've shown.
Hopefully there is an answer to this in some Ord report or something.??

Hi. Also worth noting is that "short" M10A1 levers have been found in the Guadalcanel area and I've never heard of black pineapples being found there. Cheers

Hi, thanks. Interesting, I've never seen a short spoon M10A1, just fuzes with M10 only and short spoon.

Could maybe the black grenades with M10A1 fuzes that I've seen, 5 of them total, including the one I've shown, and all exactly the same, were older stock grenades, and they could have been using up old stock?...maybe they were called substitute standard for short period until all were gone? When if so??

 

[Fragman]

Hi, thanks. Interesting, I've never seen a short spoon M10A1, just fuzes with M10 only and short spoon.

Hi, They are not too common and I only have one in my collection. I have seen another one, but it had a hole drilled in the top (probably for a trench art lighter). Cheers

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Hi, They are not too common and I only have one in my collection. I have seen another one, but it had a hole drilled in the top (probably for a trench art lighter). Cheers

Nice, I like!! Now that's what I call a rare fuze you have there. I've never seen one before, Thanks for showing it.

Now I hope the true info about these odd black grenades can be found, then some more of the pineapple puzzle pieces could be fit into place.

 

[ordnance]

I think you guys are looking too deep in this question and are missing the obvious.

Lots of black painted ordnance items from WWII and earlier exist, and most are practice or training types. I have or have seen several 60mm, 81mm, and 4.2" mortar shells that were factory painted black with white markings to denote inert loaded rounds. I'm not sure most of them are even noted in the ammunition manuals with those paint schemes.

There are also factory black painted mines, artillery projectiles, and bombs, also inert loaded. Throw in the M7A1 2.36" bazooka rockets......OK, those have live motors. Nobody said the Army was completely consistant in their marking and paint codes. They did seem to get more uniform with blue as a practice color as the war went on, with late versions of the M7A1 rockets having blue warheads.

Anyway, back to the black MkIIs. From the April, 1936 TR 1350-B, Hand Grenades, it states that "Dummy hand grenades will be painted black and this constitutes the only distinctive marking."

Further...."When the supply of dummy hand grenades, Mk.I, becomes exhausted, they will be replaced by empty fragmentation grenade bodies fitted with fuzes having live primers but without detonators. When the supply of this assembly becomes exhausted, empty fragmentation grenade bodies without fuzes will be issued for dummy use."

I think the simple answer is the black bodies in question were dummy grenades used for classroom and range training, and were never a color code for live grenades.

 

[Grenademan2005]

I think mystery is solved.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

I think you guys are looking too deep in this question and are missing the obvious.

Lots of black painted ordnance items from WWII and earlier exist, and most are practice or training types. I have or have seen several 60mm, 81mm, and 4.2" mortar shells that were factory painted black with white markings to denote inert loaded rounds. I'm not sure most of them are even noted in the ammunition manuals with those paint schemes.

There are also factory black painted mines, artillery projectiles, and bombs, also inert loaded. Throw in the M7A1 2.36" bazooka rockets......OK, those have live motors. Nobody said the Army was completely consistant in their marking and paint codes. They did seem to get more uniform with blue as a practice color as the war went on, with late versions of the M7A1 rockets having blue warheads.

Anyway, back to the black MkIIs. From the April, 1936 TR 1350-B, Hand Grenades, it states that "Dummy hand grenades will be painted black and this constitutes the only distinctive marking."

Further...."When the supply of dummy hand grenades, Mk.I, becomes exhausted, they will be replaced by empty fragmentation grenade bodies fitted with fuzes having live primers but without detonators. When the supply of this assembly becomes exhausted, empty fragmentation grenade bodies without fuzes will be issued for dummy use."

I think the simple answer is the black bodies in question were dummy grenades used for classroom and range training, and were never a color code for live grenades.

Hi, thanks for looking at your TR manual your input to this question I raised, but Black was used as a color for Live grenades, so I don't know if I agree with what you are theorizing. Originally the WWI MkI's and also late WWI MkII's were black to denote live grenades.

But, these black grenades I'm questioning, very well could be "practice" grenades like the red practice grenades that still had the lead plugs installed.

I would like to see something definite from a TR, TM or minutes report that is talking specifically about "practice" grenades not "Dummy use" grenades. They are different.

I believe the Red practice grenades were meant to be used with a fuze with a live primer cap, and no det like you mentioned (or maybe also with a det, still looking for specs on usage and loading for the Red practice grenades) Then when these Red lead plugged practice grenades were thrown/used it would just blow the fuze or plug out of the body, and body could be re-used if it was not broken.

 

[hink441]

I have this MKII and it looks like it has been re-painted a few times. It looks like it may have been black and then painted gray. It even has some rust :tinysmile_cry_t2:. I can't read any fuze markings, it could be under the paint. Do you guys think this was a black grenade? Should I strip the spoon and fuze of all paint or leave it as is? Your comments are appreciated.

 

[inertordnance]

I have this MKII and it looks like it has been re-painted a few times. It looks like it may have been black and then painted gray. It even has some rust :tinysmile_cry_t2:. I can't read any fuze markings, it could be under the paint. Do you guys think this was a black grenade? Should I strip the spoon and fuze of all paint or leave it as is? Your comments are appreciated.

Leave it alone, it should be left intact!!! It was common for the US to "repaint" grenades for various reasons (Change in color coding, Change in explosive contents, upgrades from Practice to HE or vise versa, etc.) and the paint on your example appears to be original for the period and should be left alone.

Stay safe,

Frank

 

[grog18b]

Sweet grenade cabinet there Kilroy.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

I have this MKII and it looks like it has been re-painted a few times. It looks like it may have been black and then painted gray. It even has some rust :tinysmile_cry_t2:. I can't read any fuze markings, it could be under the paint. Do you guys think this was a black grenade? Should I strip the spoon and fuze of all paint or leave it as is? Your comments are appreciated.

Like Frank said.......Leave the grenade alone! keep it as is. That's a nice original looking grenade you have, and it's nice to have the container also. If there are any, can you tell us or show pics of any markings or dates on the sides of the container.

What are the body markings? can you look closely, you should be able to see something, maybe? but some bodies were lightly marked sometimes. Same with the fuze marking on top. That also might just be a plain spoon, with no markings.

 

[sgtlynn]

quote from Manual for hand bombers 1918

Page 80-81 in regards to the Mk. II grenade,

"The surface is weather proofed by means of a non acid black paint or transparent varnish, also the upper half of the assembled grenade is dipped in an "anti rust" compound.

The grenade will be painted grey or have a grey paint mark on it when loaded. (live)"

Grey paint being the indicator of a live grenade....

I have never yet seen any reference to a live grenade being painted black as a marking. In WWI and after, they were grey until the change to yellow is all I have been able to find.