Black Pineapples

[sgtlynn]

Tr1350-b

And finally from Tr1350-B Dated May 16, 1930 Page 11

"Fragmentation hand grenades, Mk II, are painted yellow when loaded with either EC blank fire powder or high explosive. The old marking system called for painting high explosive grenades gray and a few will be found in service so painted."

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Sweet grenade cabinet there Kilroy.

They are and were not mine, they were a friends collection, and I'll agree sweet is a good word for that collection. Those prices shown with the descriptions were just estimates, and have no idea if they sold for more of less. The entire collection (120) was for sale as a group almost 2 years ago on GB.

From the April, 1936 TR 1350-B, Hand Grenades, it states that "Dummy hand grenades will be painted black and this constitutes the only distinctive marking."

Further...."When the supply of dummy hand grenades, Mk.I, becomes exhausted, they will be replaced by empty fragmentation grenade bodies fitted with fuzes having live primers but without detonators. When the supply of this assembly becomes exhausted, empty fragmentation grenade bodies without fuzes will be issued for dummy use."

I think the simple answer is the black bodies in question were dummy grenades used for classroom and range training, and were never a color code for live grenades.

I'm not sure what is being said above, what is "the supply of dummy hand grenades, Mk.I," and "becomes exhausted" how are they exhausted if they are "dummies" and made to be used over and over again. Are they talking the solid cast grenades with the WWI side swing type fuze molded into body casting? "Dummies" ?

When I hear "dummy" I think a solid cast grenade like Mk1A1, that has a "fuze" molded into the body and were used for throwing practice. Sometimes also they used un-threaded frag bodies pulled from production to be used as "dummy" throwing practice grenades.

Then they describe what I said above about the way the Red "practice" not "dummy" grenades were to be used with just a live primer cap. "they will be replaced by empty fragmentation grenade bodies fitted with fuzes having live primers but without detonators"

Then they say when those are "exhausted" "empty fragmentation grenade bodies without fuzes will be issued for "dummy use."

Weren't "practice grenades" still Red colored in 1936? and called practice grenades.... not dummy grenades?

Does this "April, 1936 TR 1350-B, Hand Grenades," mention anything about or say the word "Practice grenade" anywhere?

Is there a way when you have time to scan this manual and post the scans of all that it's saying, and maybe also the cover and table of contents?

A while back I think it was Eodtek? that showed the earliest Blue trainer I've seen so far, and it's shipping container was dated 1939. So at least by 1939 they were blue, and we were calling "practice grenades"... "practice grenades" not "Dummies" :sad:

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Page 80-81 in regards to the Mk. II grenade,

"The surface is weather proofed by means of a non acid black paint or transparent varnish, also the upper half of the assembled grenade is dipped in an "anti rust" compound.

The grenade will be painted grey or have a grey paint mark on it when loaded. (live)"

Grey paint being the indicator of a live grenade....

I have never yet seen any reference to a live grenade being painted black as a marking. In WWI and after, they were grey until the change to yellow is all I have been able to find.

Thanks, that's very interesting weatherproofing procedure info.

I have never yet seen any reference to a live grenade being painted black as a marking. In WWI and after, they were grey until the change to yellow is all I have been able to find.

The WWI MkI 32 segment grenade bodies with the original type side swing lever fuzes were painted black color, also the early first 40 segment MkII bodies at end of WWI, and slightly post war were also Black painted to signify Live or 'loaded".
I also believe some of the WWI MkI grenade bodies were also "finished" by the "blackened iron" process with no paint at all. This info I think should be in some older TR, TM's or manuals, but I have none to confirm this info for you :tinysmile_cry_t4: maybe you have older ones to look at??

 

[sgtlynn]

Colors

The earliest document I have at present, is dated 1918, and as I show in an earlier post, Grey denoted a live grenade, not black. Also noted in the May 1930 TR, they were yellow, and the previous colour coding was grey, (also shown in an earlier post).

I also find in the 1930 document that "Practice hand grenades are painted blue".

The same statement as shown by Ordnance from the april 1936 TR is also listed in the May 1930 TR regarding dummy grenades. "The dummy hand grenade Mk. I is painted black."

It seems that all official documentation indicates that the colour of live grenades was either grey or yellow, prior to being painted OD. Nothing about black grenades other than dummies. None of the documents indicate the colour of the Mk. I.

I think as ordnance has already stated, the black grenades were used as Training/dummy grenades.

So, what we have, confirmed by official documentation is

-In 1918 live grenades were Grey

-Sometime between then and May 1930 the colour change to yellow was made, but some grey ones were still being used.

- in 1930 practice grenades were blue

- in 1930 dummy grenades were black

 

[Eodtek]

So, what we have, confirmed by official documentation is

-In 1918 live grenades were Grey

-Sometime between then and May 1930 the colour change to yellow was made, but some grey ones were still being used.

The color code change from Gray to Yellow for hand grenades was May 1926.

 

[hink441]

The only mark I can find on the grenade is an 9 with a dash on top of the numeral,, this number is on one of the lower segments. There could be more marks on the body but the paint is somewhat thick. The container has no other marks except what is on the lids, and it does not look like there were ever any marks on the sides. The spoon looks like it is blank. I will try to take more pics tomorrow, I am at work today.
Sgtlynn and EODtek, thank you for the research regarding the dates of the color changes.

 

[gothica7]

Hi all,

i dont collect US grens but have had this body for ages. Its marked either RPX or RFX, seems to have had a hard life as its a bit battered and it too has the remains of black paint. I originally thought it was a repro but i reccon its original. I suspect it has been well used as a throwing dummy. No idea of its age though. I dont have a fuze for it either, no idea what type it should have.

Andy

 

[Kilroy was Here]

The only mark I can find on the grenade is an 9 with a dash on top of the numeral,, this number is on one of the lower segments. There could be more marks on the body but the paint is somewhat thick. The container has no other marks except what is on the lids, and it does not look like there were ever any marks on the sides. The spoon looks like it is blank. I will try to take more pics tomorrow, I am at work today.
Sgtlynn and EODtek, thank you for the research regarding the dates of the color changes.

Thanks for looking Hink. I've seen bodies before with a line above the number. I think the line is used to signify which is the top of the number. Numbers 6 or 9 could be confused depending on which way the grenade is held. That's a really nice looking gray grenade you have. Only gray one I have so far was made into a War Stamp Savings bank and has a slot cut on the side.

The earliest document I have at present, is dated 1918, and as I show in an earlier post, Grey denoted a live grenade, not black. Also noted in the May 1930 TR, they were yellow, and the previous colour coding was grey, (also shown in an earlier post).

I also find in the 1930 document that "Practice hand grenades are painted blue".

The same statement as shown by Ordnance from the april 1936 TR is also listed in the May 1930 TR regarding dummy grenades. "The dummy hand grenade Mk. I is painted black."

It seems that all official documentation indicates that the colour of live grenades was either grey or yellow, prior to being painted OD. Nothing about black grenades other than dummies. None of the documents indicate the colour of the Mk. I.

I think as ordnance has already stated, the black grenades were used as Training/dummy grenades.

So, what we have, confirmed by official documentation is

-In 1918 live grenades were Grey

-Sometime between then and May 1930 the colour change to yellow was made, but some grey ones were still being used.

- in 1930 practice grenades were blue

- in 1930 dummy grenades were black

Thanks Sgtlynn. Very interesting that in 1930 "practice" grenades were supposed to be blue. That's earlier than I had thought.

Here's a good one for everyone to find out.........

When did they change the nomenclature from "Dummy Grenade" to "Practice Grenade" or ?? training?? or??

To me a "Dummy grenade" is like the two on the right in first photo below. A cast one piece grenade with a hole on bottom and used for "throwing practice"......a Dummy grenade.....a throwing practice dummy

Back to Black.....I still think black was used for Live grenades at some point in WWI. Here's my reasons...........

I think this not from seeing this in manuals, but from actual examples I've seen in person. The 2 almost mint condition MkI "side swing fuze lever" grenades, and 3 other ones in near perfect condition that I've examined in hand, were definitely black color.
NOTE**** Maybe these black grenades I mention above that I've seen and examined, were MkI "Dummy" grenades from WWI?? *** "If" in fact they did make a "Dummy" MkI grenade during WWI that had a lead plug, were black, and had the original side swing lever fuze.....than I just learned something new, and will be humbled and revise my thinking.

So, then are all WWI MkI grenades with side swing fuzes that are not grey, dummy grenades??

I don't have a mint orig MkI like the black ones I mention above to show, but I do have a very early MkII 40 segment body, what I would call a late WWI grenade, just slightly post war maybe, and it has black paint. The grenade also has an actual "cut-back" fuze, you can see where the "tail" that the side swing lever would have been attached to, has been cut off with maybe a band saw. This fuze could be orig to the grenade body, and I believe these modified "cut back" fuzes were for sure used at the end of WWI for live grenades, at least that is the story I've heard. So to me, this black grenade I show below is a late WWI grenade.

I believe this is well documented that they modified the remaining original side swing lever fuzes they had in stock and used them up at end of war.

I don't think with the great demand for grenades at this time they would have used these modified cut-back fuzes for what's now being called "Dummy"? "Training"? grenades?

So....Now if I understand correctly, it's now being said that this black grenade I show below on left next to red grenade, is what is or should be called a "Dummy" grenade?.....and it was to be used for practice with live primer cap, just like the red "Dummy" :tinysmile_tongue_t: grenade next to it?................. If so, I don't think I agree with this. I think this black grenade on left was a live grenade, and I also think the black paint is original period done late WWI era.

I'm not sure now what to think about all this "dummy-practice-training-throwing practice dummy" stuff now. There's a difference in my opinion between the two....or three? types of grenades.




"paint it black!....paint it black!........paint it black! you Devil" 1969

 

[Kilroy was Here]

So they does not get lost in my loooong post above.....

1. Did they make a "Dummy" MkI grenade during WWI that had a regular frag body with lead plug, were painted black, had the original side swing lever type fuze, and used a live pimer cap with no det?

2. So then, are all the WWI MkI grenades with side swing fuzes that I've handled and examined, and the ones seen for sale that are not grey painted, "Dummy" grenades??

3. When did they start using Red "Dummy" grenades, or as I would call them "Practice" grenades

 

[sgtlynn]

Again from the 1918 Manual for hand bombers

With regards to the Mk. I grenade

"Practice grenades
These grenades are in every way similar to the one just described, with the exception that the exploding charge, detonator and fuze are omitted and the screw is not put in. This last is done for safetys sake.

Dummy grenades
These are intended for the early practice in throwing and for training in handling and supplying quantities of grenades. The are nothing more than body castings, smoothed to remove any fins or projections from the casting"

With regards to red grenades, when the US first entered WWI, they had no grenades of their own, they were initially supplied with French grenades and adopted the French method of marking for US grenades, likely because troops had already been trained to distinguish grenades by colour. From the 1918 book in the French section we have...

"Grenades painted grey are war-loaded grenades.
Grenades painted white are weighted and supplied with active fuze plugs.
Grenades painted red are provided with inert detonators (bored through) or without detonators (from condemned lots)."

 

[sgtlynn]

The color code change from Gray to Yellow for hand grenades was May 1926.

Eodtek, thanks very much for this, nice to know finally.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

This is a friends early small fill plug MkI grenade as an example..... It's Black painted, although it's been sprayed with clear laquer by the guy he bought it from. It has the wrong pull pill, but it's a nice original WWI grenade otherwise I believe.

OK, Then what is being said now is that this Black MkI, the other 5 near perfect black MkI's that I have examined personally, AND all the many other Black MkI side swing fuze grenades I have seen for sale and been sold, and the many others I'm sure other members have seen before...... these are all called "Dummy Grenades" and were used for training???

All Black MkI's are Dummy Grenades?

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Anyone have an Answer?

Anyone possibly have an Opinion or an Answer to my question above?

Are All the Black MkI's in the collector market, that I'm sure others have seen before

..........are all these Black MkI grenades now called "Dummy" Grenades, and they were intended for training or practice?

 

[hink441]

I thought it was determined that the term "dummy grenade" refered to the one piece cast iron, no fuze, throwing grenades. Is this not right?

 

[Gspragge]

Out of my area but ---

as a comparison-- Prior to WW1 U.S. Army low explosive 37mm were red and Coastal Subcal inert practice were black. For some reason during WW1 the MK1 37mm Steel Shell with black powder fill was painted black ? and by 1921 they were red again and the High Explosive Mkll was yellow. So just how old are these grenade bodies - older than the fuzes ? For a time it seems some explosive objects were black coloured ~

It is remarked in a later 1929 manual that while the projectiles were now red some of the old black projectiles might still be encountered. (MK1 L.E.) Things lingered on awhile.

 

[sgtlynn]

Anyone possibly have an Opinion or an Answer to my question above?

Are All the Black MkI's in the collector market, that I'm sure others have seen before

..........are all these Black MkI grenades now called "Dummy" Grenades, and they were intended for training or practice?

Not necessarily:tinysmile_twink_t2:

I found an article written by Rex Gallogly for Military Trader where he state "The filling plug at the bottom of the grenade is painted with grey when grenade is loaded, initially body was black, later painted gray."

So, the distinguishing colour is still grey for a loaded grenade, not black, and as quoted earlier in this post, " painted grey or have a grey mark".

So, do any of these black grenades show any sign of grey on the bottom? I would also say that it is more likely to find a drill version of the Mk. I than one that has been deactivated. Only about 72000 loaded grenades were sent overseas before being condemned, Most of those would have been used or salvaged overseas. Of the remaining inventory in the States 3.5 million were assembled but not loaded, and 1 million were loaded, all of which were destined to be salvaged. I would bet that a good number of the grenades you are finding were part of the 3.5 million unloaded grenades. Figures come from "Americas Munitions".

 

[Kilroy was Here]

I thought it was determined that the term "dummy grenade" refered to the one piece cast iron, no fuze, throwing grenades. Is this not right?

As far as I'm concerned, you are correct. Read the whole thread again carefully. You will maybe see why I asked my last question.
This thread has answered and confirmed a few questions about color change time periods, but the "Black" and "Dummy" "word usage" in this thread turned out to make no sense to me really. Maybe someone with more intelligence than myself can translate what has been said

So just how old are these grenade bodies - older than the fuzes ? For a time it seems some explosive objects were black coloured ~

The grenade I showed in post #32 is a WWI era grenade, and my opinion would be, it's made sometime in 1917. They did not make any of these grenades until we were involved in WWI, so they cannot be earlier.
This MkI grenade body I showed in post #32 has the smaller sized filler plug on the bottom, which I believe were the very first MkI grenade bodies.....the very start of U.S. mass produced grenades.
They also made another MkI "32 segment" body with a larger filler plug, the same size plug as a WW2 era grenade filler plug would have. I believe these with larger fill plug are the second type MkI bodies produced in same period 1917-1918 only. Either way the both types of 32 segment bodies were only made until "about" the end of 1918, and then the "new" 40 segment MkII body was introduced late 1918-early 1919.

I agree, for a time, black was used for high explosive objects. there's no doubt in my mind about this.

99% of the WWI MkI grenades that I have seen, that had any paint remaining, have been Black.
I find it hard to believe all these black grenades are "Dummy Grenades"

I mention all this in my other posts, there's a difference between dummy and practice, but got no answers or replies to this.

 

[Kilroy was Here]

Not necessarily:tinysmile_twink_t2:

I found an article written by Rex Gallogly for Military Trader where he state "The filling plug at the bottom of the grenade is painted with grey when grenade is loaded, initially body was black, later painted gray."

So, the distinguishing colour is still grey for a loaded grenade, not black, and as quoted earlier in this post, " painted grey or have a grey mark".

So, do any of these black grenades show any sign of grey on the bottom? I would also say that it is more likely to find a drill version of the Mk. I than one that has been deactivated. Only about 72000 loaded grenades were sent overseas before being condemned, Most of those would have been used or salvaged overseas. Of the remaining inventory in the States 3.5 million were assembled but not loaded, and 1 million were loaded, all of which were destined to be salvaged. I would bet that a good number of the grenades you are finding were part of the 3.5 million unloaded grenades. Figures come from "Americas Munitions".

Thanks for your added info Sgt. Ok, so now "initially were painted Black" So then they did use black paint for the bodies of live grenades at some point like I thought. There would only be a dab of grey paint on bottom. I've not noticed any with this paint on the bottom of any I've seen, so then they were never loaded, or the paint been worn away after all this time, but they all had fill plugs installed.

OK, so now the word "Drill" grenade comes into the thread also.
And so then we have now.... Drill grenade, Dummy grenade, Practice grenade, Training grenade, Throwing dummy grenade, Training Practice Dummy grenade, Drill Dummy, Dummy Drill, Practice Drill Dummy ...................... haha! a funny thread indeed.

Still don't know what to think about my black grenade in post #1 that started this thread. I've seen 5 of the exact same grenades, all with M10A1 fuzes :tinysmile_hmm_t: maybe it's a HE Dummy Practice Classroom Instructional Throwing Drill Training grenade.

 

[sgtlynn]

:tongue:

Ok, how about this

Dummy, Throwing practice, throwing dummy = Cast iron (normally) single piece, no functional pieces. May have a safety pin, not always. May include bodies without fuze mechanisms.

Drill, training = Complete but inert version of the grenade, exactly like the live grenade but no explosive content whatever. Not normally used for throwing practice but designed for classroom training.

Practice= designed to practice in the actual use of the grenade, may use normal bodies with practice charges that may include a black powder packet in the body and live igniter type fuze mech (used live detonators in the very early days, no longer. May have a specially designed body to closely resemble a live grenade but is designed only for practice charges, reuseable by replacing igniter mech and practice charge.

Live, war loaded, = complete grenade including explosive filler, designed to cause casualties.

 

[Eodtek]

Well let's look at what we can find about the MK I.

Production of the MK I ceased some time in June 1918. On July 1, 1918 there were 15,000,000 rough castings of grenade bodies, 3,500,000 assembled but empty grenades and 1,000,000 loaded grenades that had to be salvaged.

I'm just guessing here but it would seem likely that since the grenades were manufactured in multiple locations and filled at another location (with the exception of the grenades manufactured by Gorham Manufacturing) that they painted them to prevent rust and that the paint used was a black acid free paint.

Of all the MK I grenades I have seen, with the exception of 1 they have all had the same in common:

1. Black painted bodies
2. Completed fuzes missing the delay fuse and primer assembly.

The one exception as a green MK I with grey paint underneath the green. In that instance, the fuze was complete but missing the delay fuse and the primer. Since I have not seen an instance were the fuze looks like it was damaged I have no reason to believe that the fuze was ever loaded.

What I'm getting at there is that it is quite possible that the majority of the black MK I grenades that we are seeing are grenades that were never loaded and could either be considered practice or could be items that workers removed from the line prior to the July 1918 retooling.

Crowell provides a chart that shows on Feb. 1, 1919 there were...

Completed:
Dummy hand grenade......415,870
Practice hand grenade......3,605,884
Defensive hand grenade......17,477,245

So here they are differentiating between dummy which should be a straight throwing dummy and practice which has a live fuze.

The defensive hand grenades are most likely MK 1 bodies with modified cut back fuzes.