British 6 pr HE projectiles

[Tony Williams]

I am looking for details and illustrations of a couple of 6 pr HE projectiles:

The first one is the 6 pr 7 cwt (57x441R) HE shell used in the naval Molins autoloader. This used a 2.7 kg shell (loaded to a much lower velocity) compared with c.3 kg for the tank gun HE round.

The second is the shell used during WW2 in the old 6 pr 8 cwt naval gun, which was fitted to a number of small naval craft.

Thanks for any help.

 

[2pounder]

Did Mollins make auto loaders for the Navy as well as for the Mosquito aircraft? From memory the aircraft pictures show a pointed projectile but this of course could be paractice. Did write to Mollins to see if they had an artchive or historical group who could shed light on their ordnance work but never got a reply.

 

[Tony Williams]

Yes, the naval Molins was different from the aircraft one (which was developed from it). The origin of the Molins 6 pr was in an army project for a fast, light, 4x4 tank destroyer which was intended to engage the enemy with several fast shots then get out fast before return fire came in. The army changed its mind, so the RN picked it up and fitted it to MTBs and the like.

The main differences from the later aircraft gun: it was based on the original short-barrelled version of the 6 pr 7 cwt (L/43 rather than the later L/50), was semi-auto only and had a much smaller quantity of ammo ready to fire. Since it was intended for engaging other MTBs etc it fired HE ammo, at a fairly low velocity probably because it was intended to be flashless for use at night.

See: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_6pounder_m2a.htm

 

[Bonnex]

Dear Tony,

I have been looking through OB Procs and have not yet found the HE Shell for the 6-Pr 6 CWT but Proc 24259 mentions DD(L)15424 APC shot as being approved for he gun and Proc 26428 refers to DD(L)16885A as APCBC shot which was qualified for the Molins equipment. I can find no trace of the APC drawing but herewith copies of the APCBC projectile in the DD(L)16885 design and advanced to 16885A. Hope they are of some interest.

 

[Tony Williams]

Thanks for that - the hunt goes on!

 

[Gspragge]

6 pr 6oo Cwt, There are "Probert" pattern HE PD over here, are these AP types also "Probert" types or was that limited to the AA gun.
The 600 Cwt casing is very different from the Cwt 700 and has the shape of a Bofors with no sharp shoulder.

I posted a picture of a 6 Pr HE PD for the older Hotchkiss type gun you refer too in that big 6 Pr thread recently. There is one shown with paint and fuze early on in the same thread but in a 700 Cwt AT case.

 

[Tony Williams]

I am looking for the 6 pr 8cwt (WW2 HE loading) and the 6 pr 7 cwt (Molins naval HE loading, as shown in the above photo).

I know about the 6 pr 6 cwt HE (the experimental AA gun, not the WW1 tank gun) - I have one.

 

[HAZORD]

Tony,

If you haven't already checked this post, you might see what you are looking for:

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/71145-Show-your-6-PR-Rounds-(WW1-amp-WW2)?highlight=57mm

 

[Tony Williams]

Tony,

If you haven't already checked this post, you might see what you are looking for:

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/71145-Show-your-6-PR-Rounds-(WW1-amp-WW2)?highlight=57mm

Thanks very much for that - I had forgotten about it!

Two photos from that thread seem to meet my needs, but also prompt more questions:

This one, which you posted, shows two different lengths of HE shell for the 6 pr 7 cwt. The longer one seems to be the same as the one in my 6 pr 10 cwt coast defence gun (Twin Six). I think that the Molins must have used one of these - but which? I think probably the shorter one. Do you have any weight or performance data on these?



The other from 2pounder shows shells for the 6 pr 8 cwt. Is the one on the right missing a nose fuze?



Thanks for any help!

 

[HAZORD]

Tony, if you look at the first photo that I posted, the round on the right is the opposite side of the sectioned round. The markings are visible on the case.


Sent from my NSA/FBI tapped iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HAZORD]

Tony, I will look those rounds over and see what info I can get for you, like fuze number, headstamp for the case, and any markings on the projectiles.

Info here in the States about British artillery is scarce. Hogg's "British and American artillery of WWII" has been my best reference, but all the exotic items aren't well documented. I can check my library for what I might have.


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[Gspragge]

The secound projectile from right in the image previous looks like the 6pr for the standard Navy case #242 fuze, is that what you are calling the 800Cwt gun? The projectiles are marked 6 Pr with no mention of gun weight. Here is mine, it is 7 3/4 inches long without fuze.

 

[HAZORD]

Gordon, how does the Standard Navy case differ from the 6Pdr antitank gun case?

 

[Tony Williams]

Gordon, it isn't the 800cwt it's the 8 cwt - the weight of the gun. This fired the original 19th century Hotchkiss 57x306R ammo, which was widely fitted to RN vessels and was still in second (or third) line service in WW2. It was also used in the British "Male" tanks of WW1.

The barrel proved too long for use in the tanks so was drastically shortened and the ammo downloaded accordingly. The short gun was lighter so was designated 6 pr 6 cwt (NOT the same as the WW2 6 pr 6 cwt experimental AA gun). The downloaded tank ammo has a half-blackened case.

The 6 pr British guns were as follows (in order of appearance):

8 cwt - 306mm case, naval and early WW1 tank use
6 cwt - 306mm case, for later WW1 tanks
10 cwt - 464mm case, for coast defence (Twin Six), also fitted to a few warships in WW2
7 cwt - 441mm case, for WW2 tank/anti-tank guns, also used in both naval and aircraft Molins guns
6 cwt - 514mm case, developed throughout WW2 (and after) as an autoloading AA gun.

That's the complete list AFAIK. If anyone knows of more, please add them!

 

[Gspragge]

I hadn't heard of the term 8 cwt for the Hotchkiss navel 6 pr case before. Hazord the case is identicle to the U.S. Navy 6 pr cases made 1890s through ww1, though for the 6pr projectile you would want a British or canadian ww2 case or a reprimed ww1 case with a ww2 dated primer. I saw a 1917 British 6pr navel case yesterday made into a lamp, the case was undamaged but when I suggested is was worth $50 - $60 as a case and as a lamp nothing the shop owner seemed to be offended, but the same clown had a U.S. 6 pr case for $250.00.

Here is a typical U.S. case, they all are the same world wide.

 

[Tony Williams]

A piccy of my 6 pr collection:


From left to right:
8 cwt: 57x306R with CP shell
10 cwt: 57x464R with HE shell
7 cwt: 57x441R with AP shot
7 cwt: 57x441R with APCBC shot
7 cwt: 57x441R with APDS (replica)
7 cwt: 57x441R with HE shell (Dutch)
6 cwt: 57x514R with HE shell

 

[Gspragge]

What kind of projectile in the 10cwt, is it like the one I posted with a 242 fuze ?

 

[Tony Williams]

As far as I know, it's the standard HE projectile which the ammo came with - the "long" version of the shells shown in Hazord's pics.

My projectile is stamped as follows:

6 PR X T

BS

VAD 4/43​

The fuze is stamped:

244-111 RC 3 A J (on far side) KBY 9 43 180
​

 

[Gspragge]

My under standing is that if it just says 6 pr with no weight designation for any gun it is for the standard navy case not Cwt 700 or Cwt 600 cases. But over here the Army ran the Coastal artilley so it's an Army Navy cross over. So maybe the same over there ? If it was used by the Navy in various loadings it would be a mystery to me like your long case. This gets well beyond the little I know ~

 

[Burney Davis]

Yes, the naval Molins was different from the aircraft one (which was developed from it). The origin of the Molins 6 pr was in an army project for a fast, light, 4x4 tank destroyer which was intended to engage the enemy with several fast shots then get out fast before return fire came in. The army changed its mind, so the RN picked it up and fitted it to MTBs and the like.

The main differences from the later aircraft gun: it was based on the original short-barrelled version of the 6 pr 7 cwt (L/43 rather than the later L/50), was semi-auto only and had a much smaller quantity of ammo ready to fire. Since it was intended for engaging other MTBs etc it fired HE ammo, at a fairly low velocity probably because it was intended to be flashless for use at night.

See: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_6pounder_m2a.htm

View attachment 95785

Looking at the picture of the round they are holding it looks like it is the 10cwt projectile in the 7cwt case. I'm sure that I have seen one of these having been found in this configuration before but can't put my finger on where.

D