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Czech 20-MM
- Thread starter jvollenberg
- Start date
Is it considered a 138B? or just 138?
Joe
Joe
So, a mistake in this thread ? : http://212.178.67.161/avx/sites/fla...b3d5a07f6d837bd5f53&access=view&exp_sub_cat=0
The round Joe shows is a late production round used for insert barrels only.
Rigby is perfectly correct with the nomenclature 20-JPNhSv-38. Dimensions are 20x138B.
This "new" post 1970 production differs from older production by light gray case finish and green band on black body.
Czechoslovak army did use german 2cm Flak and rounds for insert barrels were produces using german marked cases. So the article in the thread is not so bad.
Bob
Rigby is perfectly correct with the nomenclature 20-JPNhSv-38. Dimensions are 20x138B.
This "new" post 1970 production differs from older production by light gray case finish and green band on black body.
Czechoslovak army did use german 2cm Flak and rounds for insert barrels were produces using german marked cases. So the article in the thread is not so bad.
Bob
In the Czechoslovak army there were several types of 20mm insert barrels for German (20x138B) and for Russian cartridges (20x99 R, Svak)
In 1951, I found a "Guideline for determining the danger area when shooting from a 20mm inserted barrel", (apparently it is about 20x99R, Svak cartridges)
In 1954, a draft service regulation was developed for: 20mm Loading insert barrel for tank and self-propelled guns. (20x99 R , Svak)
In 1955, the ,,control test,, was for 20mm insert barrels. (tank T-34/85), 20x99R Švak
And only in 1960 20mm insert barrel for 100mm TK-D-10 -TG ...(20x138B)
It looks like that for Russian tank and artillery material (wartime), including post-war production under the T-34/85 license, it had an insert barrel for the 20x99R Švak and, "newly", for the tank cannon in the T-55 tank in about 1960, there was a new insert barrel 20x138B.
There are cartridges that have a German cartridge (20x138B) and a Russian shell from 20mm Svak. They don't look like fakes.
Akon
In 1951, I found a "Guideline for determining the danger area when shooting from a 20mm inserted barrel", (apparently it is about 20x99R, Svak cartridges)
In 1954, a draft service regulation was developed for: 20mm Loading insert barrel for tank and self-propelled guns. (20x99 R , Svak)
In 1955, the ,,control test,, was for 20mm insert barrels. (tank T-34/85), 20x99R Švak
And only in 1960 20mm insert barrel for 100mm TK-D-10 -TG ...(20x138B)
It looks like that for Russian tank and artillery material (wartime), including post-war production under the T-34/85 license, it had an insert barrel for the 20x99R Švak and, "newly", for the tank cannon in the T-55 tank in about 1960, there was a new insert barrel 20x138B.
There are cartridges that have a German cartridge (20x138B) and a Russian shell from 20mm Svak. They don't look like fakes.
Akon
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Range tables for tank guns with insert barrels 20 mm and 7,92 mm (T 304 51) from 1951 say that 20 mm insert barrel is adapted from 20 mm AA gun vz. 38N (German 2 cm FLAK 38).
The insert barrels were used with 85 mm gun 44 (soviet), 75 mm tank gun (British) 75 mm tank gun 40 (German) and 75 mm self-propelled antitank guns 40 and 39/44 (German).
Rigby is correct, again
Bob
The insert barrels were used with 85 mm gun 44 (soviet), 75 mm tank gun (British) 75 mm tank gun 40 (German) and 75 mm self-propelled antitank guns 40 and 39/44 (German).
Rigby is correct, again
Bob
...
Original Russian insert barrels (i.e. purchased or donated) from the USSR to the Czechoslovak Army after 1945-1951 will not be built on German 20x238B cartridges. According to what I've read about the solution of insert barrels from 1945 to ... after circa 1950 there were different calibers of 7.92mm (7.62mm), 20mm, 30mm, 37mm: some only in the conceptual design, then some in the drawing solution and eventually some actually produced.
So summarized between the year 1945 (at least and let's say 1950 must have been something else.
From what is stated in the military regulations: (I remind you that a complete set of regulations has not been preserved...)
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- ---------
Tank-IV-4 ; Firing tables for tank guns with 7.92mm and 20mm insert barrels. (T 304 51); Prague 1951,
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -----
Děl-22-24 ; 7.62mm and 20mm insert barrel; Prague 1963
Děl-11-97 ; Firing tables for 7.62mm and 20mm insert barrels; Prague 1962
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- ---
In "modern" weapons, it is known that the Russians (not service Czech army) insert barrel for tank guns built for the 23 x 152B cartridge (the bottom of the cartridge case is signed "BC", i.e. Bkaldnyj Ctvol)
Akon
Drawing cca 1975
Original Russian insert barrels (i.e. purchased or donated) from the USSR to the Czechoslovak Army after 1945-1951 will not be built on German 20x238B cartridges. According to what I've read about the solution of insert barrels from 1945 to ... after circa 1950 there were different calibers of 7.92mm (7.62mm), 20mm, 30mm, 37mm: some only in the conceptual design, then some in the drawing solution and eventually some actually produced.
So summarized between the year 1945 (at least and let's say 1950 must have been something else.
From what is stated in the military regulations: (I remind you that a complete set of regulations has not been preserved...)
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- ---------
Tank-IV-4 ; Firing tables for tank guns with 7.92mm and 20mm insert barrels. (T 304 51); Prague 1951,
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -----
Děl-22-24 ; 7.62mm and 20mm insert barrel; Prague 1963
Děl-11-97 ; Firing tables for 7.62mm and 20mm insert barrels; Prague 1962
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- ---
In "modern" weapons, it is known that the Russians (not service Czech army) insert barrel for tank guns built for the 23 x 152B cartridge (the bottom of the cartridge case is signed "BC", i.e. Bkaldnyj Ctvol)
Akon
Drawing cca 1975
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