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Evolution of US Army Submunitions

thank you very much for these pictures. They awnsered a question for me regarding the M38/M40
 
To bad they don't ahve the bio bomblets that we tested there, all stimulant of course. I remember supporting those tests. after every test firing, we had to go out and destroy every one that failed to function, then gather the pieces of functioned part and blow them up too
 
thanks. I have always been interested in these evil little things. They are far from my main interests, but their design has been pretty well hidden. I was afraid to but any as I could never see how you could check them for inertness and did not want to learn from experiment!
 
highlandotter said:
thanks. I have always been interested in these evil little things. They are far from my main interests, but their design has been pretty well hidden. I was afraid to but any as I could never see how you could check them for inertness and did not want to learn from experiment!
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Quite simple , if found "in the wild" in countries where they have been used like Laos , Cambodje , Irak, consider them as armed duds, exept when still packed in the missile. The -originally- blue colored ones are inert.

Regards, DJH
 
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thanks. After buying about 500 "inert" ordnance items, both grenades and artillery rounds 98% dated before 1920, and having found 4-5 found to be live, I want to see myself, that the item is indeed empty. Too many sellers are not familiar with what they are selling, often thinking artillery rounds are inert if the propellant gone, not whether the projectile is filled and the fuze active. So, I always now ask questions to make sure there will be any tense moments deactivating the item. If it looks to be beyond my ability, off to the bomb squad it goes. When it comes to cluster bombs and their relatives, I start clucking like a chicken!!!Still wont buy or take one of theses things. I have heard that they are blown in place when clearing an area?
?
 
pzgr40 said:
Quite simple , if found "in the wild" in countries where they have been used like Laos , Cambodje , Irak, consider them as armed duds, exept when still packed in the missile. The -originally- blue colored ones are inert.

Regards, DJH
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Two things DJ, first understand that like nearly everyplace else, the displays are put together by the museum folks at WSMR - they have no training or background in ordnance. While they normally try to research what they can, they have no formal training. Be careful what questions you let their displays answer for you as they are not always accurate.

Second, blue does not mean inert, it means practice. Submunitions - like hundreds of other pieces of ordnance - may have spotting charges when used for practice. You can have energetic practice pieces with yellow bands, brown bands or no bands. At WSMR we frequently flew subs as full up, Phase 0 and Phase one. Zero was inert, Phase one had live fuze only. Research they specific piece you are dealing with, do not accept general rules that have no basis in fact.
 
You are right Jeff, was just hapopy to see some info appear about this "illusive" subject.
Maybe you can awnser a question for me;
I have this blue "Ball", it's 41mm diameter , I believe it to be tyhe M32 , not the M38/M40.
Can you tell me what type of fuze belongs to this type if live? the M219, the M219E1 , The M218 or the M224.

Thanks in advance, Regards, DJH
 

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  • is this the M32 (41 mm diameter).JPG
    is this the M32 (41 mm diameter).JPG
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Thank you very much for the info Kiwieod, most helpfull.
It brings me to the next question":
I have info about the fuzes M218 , M219 , M219 E1 and the M224, but no info about the M212.
Whomcan help me on info about the M212 fuze? Preferabl a drawing...
Thanks in advance ,
Regards, DJH
 
kiwieod said:
according to this manual it could any of the fuzes.
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Sorry Kiwi, but incorrect in this instance, because the identification is wrong. DJ, your item is not an M32, at least not that anyone has been able to show. I believe that it was a proprietary attempt to update the M32/38/40 series of submunitions, which ultimately failed.

The golf ball size submunitions were fielded in the 50s - 60s, used in systems like the Honest John, Sadeye, etc. They were in many ways very typical of the munitions of the era, though the series suffered due to the size of the munitions vs its fuze, limited by the technology of the day. The fuze was just too large and took up much of the explosive capacity. The series ultimately saw little use in Viet Nam, surpassed by the BLU 26 series which had a much greater explosive/weight ratio.

Sometime in the 1990s variants of your piece started to show up. I've seen them with several minor differences, but most are recognizable as from the same series. They are different from the older golf balls in construction, materials and size (slightly). The easiest to see is the clamp band used to hold the hemispheres together. On the newer version it is flat and inset, lighter and of a different material. The bodies of the golf balls were an aluminum matrix, with steel balls imbedded. The newer versions are frequently found as plastic, or a light alloy of unidentified metal. The flutes are different, and there is no stabilizing flute running 90 degrees from the rotation flutes. I have not had the opportunity to Xray one, so I don't know if the newer versions were ever dummy loaded.

I've never seen one of the newer ones that looked as though it had been dropped or in the field (impact or weather damage), leading me to suspect that they were only a model for discussion, display or exploration of a concept. Still, an interesting piece. Them showing up in the 90s could mean development in the late 80s, I was at White Sands from 85-89 and they never showed up there. We had many of the old test fields from the golf balls and their predecessors there with remnants of the history, but no new variants were dropped during my tenure. Maybe someday someone will find a desktop display with actual ID or company name on it.

It can be hard to make an ID on some of these pieces without accurate publications or items that you can make a comparison with. The pubs are just not that good and there are so many variations. I've attached a photo of some of mine to give you an idea. I'm at work right now so this is a poor photo from a shelf shot in my files, but you get the gist. Each of these is different from the others in some manner.

IMG_1216.JPG
 
What's the sub on the bottom shelf, right handside after the rooks, white in colour 5 flights/vanes? I Should have made that obvious.....in your recent picture Jeff....
 
I don't know if I have any information on that, there is much less information available on the Little John than the Honest John. It would also depend on which submunition, most of the systems had different payload packages available.
 
US-Subs said:
I don't know if I have any information on that, there is much less information available on the Little John than the Honest John. It would also depend on which submunition, most of the systems had different payload packages available.
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Of course, I understand. The page from manual posted by kiwieod mentioned M32 and M38/M40 grenades.

Data for Honest John warhead I found already in your old post on this forum (3093 M32s or 4800 M38/M40s).

I think there was also cluster warhead for Sergeant?
 
Pretty much all of the Army systems of that period had submunition warheads - Sergeant, Corporal, Lacrosse etc. Without the specific documents on the warheads however information can be hard to find. Lacrosse is a good example, I can remember finding impacted missile remnants on Ft. Sill with the submunitions co-located and spread throughout the area, but finding anything technical on the system or the warheads was very difficult.
 
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