Gammon grenade repro

[US-Subs]

OK Dano, so you're selective about what fakes are ok? Or just as long as they are $10 or less? I love reading so many of these posts - As I've mentioned before, in one post so many will talk about the "repro" that they boght, or the "renovation" that they are working on, then a month or two later the same folks ask "Is this piece real?". Just do a quick search above, type in "fake" and see how many threads come up.

Or better, go out and buy the next German Stick grenade that comes along for under $400. Or look for a British Hawkins, or a Japanese Ceramic. Not that it is limited to grenades. Fakes flood every area, and some are very, very hard to tell. The more rare, the more expensive, the morelikely it is to be forged. And the people buying them are either unknowing or out to save a buck.

No hard feelings to anybody for expressing an opinion, but I think some of you need to consider the subject long term. You may someday want to buy a nice piece that you don't have variations of, or never had the chance to play with and see the details on. Pity if you chose poorly. Even worse if the one you got your knowledge from and based your decision on was a fake to begin with. Once you've had a good burn or two, spent a few hundred on a repro piece of trash that was touted by its second or third owner as original, see how you feel then. Start a thread when you do, I love a good laugh.

 

[dano1917]

OK Dano, so you're selective about what fakes are ok? Or just as long as they are $10 or less? I love reading so many of these posts - As I've mentioned before, in one post so many will talk about the "repro" that they boght, or the "renovation" that they are working on, then a month or two later the same folks ask "Is this piece real?". Just do a quick search above, type in "fake" and see how many threads come up.

Or better, go out and buy the next German Stick grenade that comes along for under $400. Or look for a British Hawkins, or a Japanese Ceramic. Not that it is limited to grenades. Fakes flood every area, and some are very, very hard to tell. The more rare, the more expensive, the morelikely it is to be forged. And the people buying them are either unknowing or out to save a buck.

No hard feelings to anybody for expressing an opinion, but I think some of you need to consider the subject long term. You may someday want to buy a nice piece that you don't have variations of, or never had the chance to play with and see the details on. Pity if you chose poorly. Even worse if the one you got your knowledge from and based your decision on was a fake to begin with. Once you've had a good burn or two, spent a few hundred on a repro piece of trash that was touted by its second or third owner as original, see how you feel then. Start a thread when you do, I love a good laugh.

I think there is a big difference between an out and out fake and a repro. This Gammon grenade I am not familiar with, but know if I were re-enacting I sure would not flog an original in the field. In the eye of the beholder. The ones who make out and out fakes should be casterated! When I talk filler piece, i mean something to fill a void in the collection until a good piece or better times come along. I've seen some made up MK2's that I had no idea. Does one ever REALLY know what one is buying. AW hell i'm going all over the place here so i'm out......Dano

 

[butterfly]

I can see both sides of this discussion

Take the re-enactor displaying an arrangement of kit on a static display, half a dozen repro Gammon grenades on an airbourne display looks quite impressive and would probably be what was carried. Now to do that in original kit would be both expensive and fool-hardy to say the least. Ben already pointed out in another thread about the light-fingered people around who take advantage of shows etc - so in this case a repro would be a sensible option.
(I only chose Gammon as it was the one in the opening post- equally it could be stick grenade or anything else for that matter)
Having said that I went to a display recently and saw a very 'impressive' display of repro items, tellermines, S-mines, stickgrenades, panzershrek rockets etc - It looked the part, but did absolutely nothing for me as a collector who appreciates historical items - but for display fine I guess.

Or has Dano has pointed out a repro as a 'filler' till an original can take its place may be ok for some.

Taking it to another level, there was also a Spitfire on display, or rather there wasn't a Spitfire on display, but a modern construction which looked like one!! Now I probably couldn't afford a repro one of those!!!


Now here is the problem....and its not confined to ordnance its everywhere ....fakes. A reproduction is one thing a fake is another. Trouble is the reproductions are getting so good that it isn't too difficult for 'certain people' to turn these into fakes and you only have to look at some of the stick grenades now turned out to see how good they are. Ok there are certain features that make them stand out - now - but how long before these get 'ironed out'. I think repros ought to be stamped repro, and what really gets me is when I see new reproduction items bearing a date stamp 1942 (or whatever) why? its repro? why mark it up with makers marks that goes too far in my opinion.
Something else I can't get my head around is that in certain areas of militaria some reproductions cost more than the originals???

For me, I don't touch reproductions, for me its historical - we, all of us are only custodians of the items we have. All of it will outlive us and what do you want to pass on to the next generation?? Historical fact or historical fiction. My advice is save up for an original, don't get sucked into 'its a fantanstic repro, just like the real thing' - its not and never will be.

At the end of the day its all personal opinion.

......as a footnote.....it may be interesting to run some kind of anonymus poll to see how opinion are split on this one??
(Reproduction has a place in my collection Yes or no )

kind regards Kev

 

[dano1917]

There is a repro "Spirit of St. Louis" hanging from the ceiling at Lambert St. Louis airport, I think original is in Smithsonian. When I go to St. Louis airport I do like seeing the "fake" hanging there as it takes me to Lindburg era in my mind, a place I like to go. Dano

 

[chaseuk45]

I did not know the response to this post!! US-SUBS it is the only repro I will have and when I come across a real one I will get it. It is only a filler there was no need to start throwing your toys out of the pram!! Like someone else has said we don't all have bottomless pockets!!!

Thanks to all who posted a positive comment!!

 

[paul the grenade]

I have a good quality repro 2ww german stick gren that i am almost read to section. I have managed to source the original fuze and pull string from a fellow member. I would not dream of doing this to an original as they are way to expensive. Maybe this is the best thing to do with repros?
I'll post some pics when i finally get of my arse and start it.:tinysmile_shy_t:
Cheers, Paul.

 

[Grenademan2005]

Interesting thread, it started as one thing and became another. My point of view, which I learned a long time ago, is this: I never try to convince anybody of what they have to do with one thing, everybody is free on do what they want, BUT I have my head very clear also and I will NEVER buy a repro for fill a hole in my collection, I prefer dont have that item never in my life than have it knowing that it is a fake. Thats all, the rest of the world can do what they want.

 

[waffenamt]

I have a good quality repro 2ww german stick gren that i am almost read to section. I have managed to source the original fuze and pull string from a fellow member. I would not dream of doing this to an original as they are way to expensive. Maybe this is the best thing to do with repros?
I'll post some pics when i finally get of my arse and start it.:tinysmile_shy_t:
Cheers, Paul.

Thats a good idea Paul.
Also,it would be a good idea if repro's were marked as such so nobody gets burnt?

best

waff

 

[navyman]

Hello,
Interesting thread here. I have recently finished restoring a No 5 which had already had a slice cut from it. I imagine that the person who originally cut it decided that the job was too difficult as the relic was just a solid lump of rust and corroded alloy. It took me many weeks of careful work to remove the rust and alloy which was decaying more each day. Eventually I managed to free everything, and cut away the corroded part of the centre tube. After stabilising and painting, the section now is in full working order and the only parts which have been replaced with repro's are the pin and det set as these were missing, (they are clearly repro's), all other parts are original to the grenade except the base plug which is an original correctly dated one given to me by a fellow member. Without this work the relic would have been a useless piece of corrosion fit only for the rubbish bin.
Anyone like to tell me this was wrong or a waste of my time?
Cheers,
navyman.

 

[spotter]

I have a good quality repro 2ww german stick gren that i am almost read to section. I have managed to source the original fuze and pull string from a fellow member. I would not dream of doing this to an original as they are way to expensive. Maybe this is the best thing to do with repros?
I'll post some pics when i finally get of my arse and start it.:tinysmile_shy_t:
Cheers, Paul.

Hi Paul,Heres a repro i chopped and added parts to,,this was made to use as an example of how these work.I used only a few original parts ,igniter,frag sleeve,pull bead.

 

[Grenademan2005]

Hello,
Interesting thread here. I have recently finished restoring a No 5 which had already had a slice cut from it. I imagine that the person who originally cut it decided that the job was too difficult as the relic was just a solid lump of rust and corroded alloy. It took me many weeks of careful work to remove the rust and alloy which was decaying more each day. Eventually I managed to free everything, and cut away the corroded part of the centre tube. After stabilising and painting, the section now is in full working order and the only parts which have been replaced with repro's are the pin and det set as these were missing, (they are clearly repro's), all other parts are original to the grenade except the base plug which is an original correctly dated one given to me by a fellow member. Without this work the relic would have been a useless piece of corrosion fit only for the rubbish bin.
Anyone like to tell me this was wrong or a waste of my time?
Cheers,
navyman.

Read the yellow post at page 3, all I will tell you is Good Work, thats all. You made it with all your love, so no wasted time here. :love: And yes, all repros would have to be very well marked as repros for elude fuc..ing sellers try to fool people. And yes again, a repro is a good way for do a cut away item.

 

[US-Subs]

I did not know the response to this post!! US-SUBS it is the only repro I will have and when I come across a real one I will get it. It is only a filler there was no need to start throwing your toys out of the pram!! Like someone else has said we don't all have bottomless pockets!!!

Thanks to all who posted a positive comment!!

chaseuk45,
at the beginning of your thread you asked, "Hi i am thing of getting one of these are they any good??". Apparently I misunderstood, only responses stating that they are good and that you will be making a good decision were desired?

One feature of this and other similar forums is that in a single thread subjects grow and shift beyond the original question. Questions and comments build from that point to where after some days, the subject under discussion frequently has little to do with the start of the thread.

Generally in this forum frank questions are asked, honest answers and opinions are given. Only infrequently do exceptions occur where someone takes it personally.

Sometimes the problem is not with the answer but with the question.

 

[dano1917]

Hello,
Interesting thread here. I have recently finished restoring a No 5 which had already had a slice cut from it. I imagine that the person who originally cut it decided that the job was too difficult as the relic was just a solid lump of rust and corroded alloy. It took me many weeks of careful work to remove the rust and alloy which was decaying more each day. Eventually I managed to free everything, and cut away the corroded part of the centre tube. After stabilising and painting, the section now is in full working order and the only parts which have been replaced with repro's are the pin and det set as these were missing, (they are clearly repro's), all other parts are original to the grenade except the base plug which is an original correctly dated one given to me by a fellow member. Without this work the relic would have been a useless piece of corrosion fit only for the rubbish bin.
Anyone like to tell me this was wrong or a waste of my time?
Cheers,
navyman.

Guy, I do like what you've done with the NO5. I've mentioned many times before that with relics I may alter them, or may leave them alone based solely on my personal opinion. After all it is your item and you are free to do as you wish. The NO20 in my first came to me from a fellow BOCN member (thanks Tony) as the body only which I lightly cleaned. Well I posted a pic of it and another BOCN member (thanks Paul) gives me a spare brass adaptor that he had. So already the true spirit of BOCN was showing its colors, collector helping collector. Then I made and fitted the rod because it just would not have been a rifle grenade to me without one. In my opinion I ended up with a fairly displayable piece with minimum investment and actually know where it was found (huge to me). Second picture is my NO36 MKI. I bought the bare body off a BOCN member cheaply. Another BOCN member gave me an original base plug, and yet another member sold me pin and lever that are reproduction. Now I collect WWI German grenades and that is what I buy when I shell out large but what WWI collection could do without a Mills bomb. Again in my opinion I have a very displayable piece and the body is original which is good enough for me and also with this one the collector helping collector spirit of BOCN once again showed itself. Picture 3 is my MKI which (in my opinion) I probably crossed the line in doing it up. I bought for 60.00 US, again from a BOCN member for 60.00. I started a thread about putting a resin replica fuze on it for display purposes, Then again in the true BOCN spirit another member sends me free of charge, the MKII cutback fuze (thanks Justin). When you compare the price of an original it was just a no brainer to me. None of these grenades would not fool anyone and are not meant to. I guess i'll cut this off here because I am rambling and I fear wearing out my welcome. Also just to reiterate what I said before that the out and out fakes that are made or altered to fool someone are bad, but other than that I think there is a place for resto-repro in our hobby. Most importantly I have seen many differing opinions expressed on this thread and the best part is that everybody is RIGHT. After all it is all a matter of opinion. I saw a sign on a dealers table at a show one time which pretty much sums it up "why is it that my stuff is crap and your crap is stuff".............Dano

 

[gothica7]

Hello,
Interesting thread here. I have recently finished restoring a No 5 which had already had a slice cut from it. I imagine that the person who originally cut it decided that the job was too difficult as the relic was just a solid lump of rust and corroded alloy. It took me many weeks of careful work to remove the rust and alloy which was decaying more each day. Eventually I managed to free everything, and cut away the corroded part of the centre tube. After stabilising and painting, the section now is in full working order and the only parts which have been replaced with repro's are the pin and det set as these were missing, (they are clearly repro's), all other parts are original to the grenade except the base plug which is an original correctly dated one given to me by a fellow member. Without this work the relic would have been a useless piece of corrosion fit only for the rubbish bin.
Anyone like to tell me this was wrong or a waste of my time?
Cheers,
navyman.

Hi Guy,

i think your section from the relic gren is just fine, especially as its all from an original gren too. Cant see a problem with it.

I have a small collection of repro Mills grens and bits and pieces as a reference collection so that i am not caught out. All bought or aquired as repro's, the Mills bodies originally being sold as original, one from a boot fair. These i have shown to fellow collectors so as to warn them what to look for. Some of these bodies are now turning up on well known dealer websites, i could name 2 now, for vastly inflated prices, both WW1 and WW2. There are also loads of fake base plugs being sold as original and its also useful to have a selection of these too.
So, unless there is a website or some other point of contact where pictures of this latest batch of fakes can be viewed then in my book there is a place for these fakes so they can be exposed as such.
Copying something as a true copy is ok in my book, so long as its marked 'copy' or 'reproduction' and not sold as an original.
There are miriads of fake antiques out there, plus a lot of stuff that was as an example, a Victorian copy of a, say, an Elizabethan piece and always seen and sold as such.
Its the items that are so well made so as to be seen as exactly the same as the original that are the problem and not many such items get past the 'experts'.
Usually, the copies are not as good as the original, certainly the case with the Mills bodies.

Andy

 

[navyman]

Thanks for all your comments.
I understand both points of view on this subject and think it should be a decision which should be made by each individual collector.
Personally, I will continue to try and rescue items which are considered 'beyond hope', and are in danger of total decay. (something raised from the ashes, as quoted by Dano)!
I have experience of conservation from spending five years working in a highly respected museum, which also displayed casts or copies, (suitably labled as such), when the original was either in another museum, or too delicate/rare/valuable to be displayed.
I have no interest in making anything which could be described as a fake and all my work is catalogued and photographed.
Good to hear all these different points of view though.
Cheers,
navyman.

 

[chaseuk45]

Good job that looks great!!