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German 12,8cm (128mm) Pzgr 43 Jadgtiger Projectile Reproduction (Fake)

M

M8owner

Well-Known Member
I have had this beast for about two months now, and I have put this post off long enough. This is a topic that I did not want to write about. There are probably a few others out there who think the 12,8cm (128mm) ammo for the German Jadgtiger is the ultimate WWII tank ammo collectable. I was hoping to proclaim my success in finding my Holy Grail. Now, instead, I must tell the tale of my folly. My great prize turns out to be a reproduction (fake). It is now up to me to educate our merry band of collectors as I am the one who took delivery and called “fake” on it. My goal here to put all this information in one place so no one else in our group makes the same mistake.

According the following post on wk2ammo, what I have is a Hungarian made reproduction:

http://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?1959-12-8cm-projectile-looks-fake&highlight=128mm

I wonder how many of these reproductions are out there. I can only find two pictures or references on the web for real projectiles owned by collectors. Jaap (PzGr40) has the best photos with a cut away that can be seen at:

http://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?663-12-8cm-PzGr43&highlight=pzgr43

I can only assume most of the 12,8cm Pzgr 43’s out there must be reproductions as I have seen more photos of these than the real thing.

My beast has been in the hands of at least three BOCN members including the previous owner. The previous owner and I have come to an understanding, and we are sharing the pain. I believe him when he said that he did not know this was a fake. Even with the previous owner’s sharing of the burden, I have well over $500 invested in it.

The worst part is that I researched everything I could find here and on the web before I bought it. I even read the wk2ammo posts. The wk2ammo thread is confusing for many reasons. I came away from the first reading thinking my beast was the real thing, and the person claiming it was a fake was in error. I believe I thought this because he posted a page from the German 12.8cm flak gun manual. I thought that discredited him. However, by the end of four pages of posts, it seems the consensus of the group is that these are fakes. I did not get that until after I purchased the item and read the string a second time.

The workmanship is outstanding. It is even threaded on the bottom for the fuse. The ballistic tip is made of sheet metal – it is not solid. The guy who made this was a master craftsman. In fact, it is too perfect.
The waffenamts on the driving bands should have identified it as a fake. I have not seen waffenamts on the driving bands of any other FES equipped projectiles. I included a photo of the reproduction 12,8cm driving bands compared to the FES bands on two other 88mm projectiles. The driving bands have machining marks and appear to be made from the same material as the body; these should have identified it as fake also.

The nail in the coffin as to fake or not was the heat treatment testing I did. I used a simple heat treatment test device. All the metal is soft or non-heat treated. I included a photo of such a quick heat treat tester. It drops a heat treated steel ball on the test piece, and the height the ball bounces gives you some idea as to the heat treatment of a steel piece. It is inexpensive, fast and easy to use.

At 60 lbs. or 26 kgs, it has almost $200 of steel in it at US prices. It would take me several days to make its equal. Considering steel cost and machinist hours in the US, it would cost at least $500 to make one. I am interested in your opinions as too the value of this item as a reproduction.



128mm projectile.jpg128mm reproduction markings.jpg128mm flak.jpg128mm Jadgtiger ammo.jpg128mm Shell Casing for Jadgtiger.jpgheat treat quick test device.jpg128mm driving band vs. 88mm.jpg128 base threads for fuse.jpg
 
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That sucks you got burned, but thank you for getting the info out so those of us without as much experience know what to look out for.
 
Thank you for this post Steve. Very noble of you to admit your mistake on the forum. It probably would have fooled me too.
Here is a picture of one that sold on Gunbroker in about 2011 - it would help if someone can also verify this as genuine or not. The drive bands are unusual. I believe it sold for $2000+ with the casing.
As far as yours, if I had an empty 128 case I would want to fill it - and would probably pay $300 for such a nice replica (knowing I would not find a real one here in the US).
128mmFlak40_(5).jpg128mmFlak40_(6).jpg128mmFlak40_(7).jpg128mmFlak40_(8).jpg128mmFlak40_(9).jpg128mmFlak40_(10).jpg128mmFlak40_(11).jpg128mmFlak40_(12).jpg128mmFlak40_(13).jpg128mmFlak40_(14).jpg128mmFlak40_(15).jpg128mmFlak40_(16).jpg
 
Those fakes have been around for about 25 years. The steel didn't cost that much back then. There was a guy in the Reno area that was selling them back then. The same guy once sent me a photo of supposed hardcore rounds, that were all fakes made from reworked HE rounds.
 
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Jeff - The 128mm AP round you show for the flak gun came out of the late Nick Nixon's collection. He was a resident of Houston and passed away in 2008; his collection was acquired and sold by Marshall Morgan (Armament). He had one of the nicest ordnance collections in the US. I do not know what to think of that projectile. It fits into that "too perfect" category. The driving bands are not like any I have seen, and the waffenamts on the drive bands makes it highly suspect - to me. I have found issues with items in Nick's collection previously.
 
Nick Nixon was an experience. When he first started collecting, he painted his items, and just made some things up, like the DODIC numbers on large projectiles. Once he was more experienced, he found a guy that worked at Picatinney Arsenal or one of the proving grounds that had access to their warehouse of captured war materials. He would buy the guy a color TV and get a King Tiger round in trade. He got a number of rounds that way.
 
I'd say the ex-Nick Nixons projectile is genuine (the thread stater is clearly fake)
i have two 12,8cm pzgr43 projectiles with two different driving band styles, one like the normal 8,8cm kwk43 smooth rounded driving band and the other like the one in the photos of Nick Nixons APC projectile

I do understand why you'd think it was "too perfect", as it clearly hasn't got any pitting, but similarly it's not been filled either as that's very visible. But in this case, i'd say the Waffenampt stamps and other markings all look genuine and in the right style and location. (Albeit slightly hesitant about the marking on the body of the projectile),...WaA markings on the driving band are common. It's simply been re-painted, "too perfectly"

BTW, far as I know, the PJK44 (jadgtiger) only used the APCBC ap/he projectile (and HE), Which Nick Nixons isn't.

just my 2c
Rich
 
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So I have a question that relates to this. All German Flak guns had AP ammo, so the guns could be lowered for antiarmor/antimaterial use. Is the AP projectile used in the Flak gun the same as the one used in the tank gun (KwK)?
 
John - The AP projectiles for the flak gun and the Jadgtiger are different. The Nick Nixon projectile above is for the flak gun. The repro I have is modeled on the Jadgtiger projectile. Please see the photos from the German manuals in my original post; these show the differences.
 
The thread SG500 posted, never actually concluded whether my placement of those projectiles in the flak40 case was valid or not.

So, We know the Jagdtiger used separately loaded rounds (due to space restrictions inside the vehicle) as the mouth of the PJK44 case is 165mm and the projectile is 128mm. Clearly no need for cannelures then on the PzGr43 projectile if it was exclusively for the Jagdtiger.

The 12,8cm PaK40 (and Sturer Emil) etc had no such space restriction, so did they in fact use single piece rounds like I posted? It certainly makes sense the the PaK40 (and Jagdtiger) would have been given APCBC projectile for antitank work.

....and this left the older style APC round with the FLaK crews in case they came under attack.

unless I'm corrected otherwise, I would assume the rounds for the FLaK40 and PaK40 were interchangeable, but preference given to the PaK 40 for APCBC

i feel a waffen revue search coming on.
 
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If You search the waffenrevue Nr 71 there is a reference to the use of 12,8cm Pzgr 43 with 12,8cm Flak 40.
My LDv 4402/7 and HDv 481/581 are from 1942 so the change is probably not listed there yet.

I think PAK 40 is a typing error
The Waffenrevue Nr. 50 and 51 describes the development of the guns.

Bob
I
 
Hi Bob,
You're quite right I meant PaK44.
interestingly I've now found photos showing the FLaK40 using fixed single piece rounds... (With a very strong chap doing the loading, as they're not light) so clearly the projectiles would have had cannelures.

from what I can tell, the PaK44 and PJK44 were Krupp derivatives of the orIginal Rheinmetal FLaK40 but both used separately loaded rounds without the need for cannelures, I wonder if it was simpler just to have one design of projectile with the possibility of using it in the FLaK40 if they so wanted.

I have the Waffen Revues you mention, so I'll search tonight, but see no reason why the APCBC projectile was not intended to be used in the FLaK40 case

rich
 
I think I am noticing a pattern on these fakes as another one has just shown up. All marked "elg" with the day changing on the date, month either 2 or 3, and always same year. Maybe he dated each fake sequentially (awfully nice of him)?
Also again, no markings on the bottom. L-R newest one, then 2 others previously posted above, then one from another forum.

gunbroker1.jpg12_8cmmarkings.jpg128mm%20reproduction%20markings.jpgL55%202.jpg

Here are some more views of the latest. Looks like copper drive bands - maybe someone changed them? Haven't seen a fake with base plate - might be original or was he faking those too?
gunbroker2.jpggunbroker3.jpggunbroker4.jpg
 
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Bob is correct,
For anyone interested, I looked up the pages in waffen revue 71 that mention the munitions used with the 12,8cm flak 40, and it does list both the 12,8cm Pzgr, and the 12,8cm Pzgr 43 projectiles... Which I guess is kinda obvious as why else would the 12,8cm Pzgr 43 have cannelures for sole use in a pjk44 case whose mouth is 165mm dia.

So while the 12,8cm Flak40 is a single piece fixed round, the Jagdtiger's 12,8cm PJK44 is two piece loading, requiring only one person to load, but the flak40 with Pzgr must surely require assistance from two people when loading... Else one strong brute
 
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RichardB said:
Bob is correct,
For anyone interested, I looked up the pages in waffen revue 71 that mention the munitions used with the 12,8cm flak 40, and it does list both the 12,8cm Pzgr, and the 12,8cm Pzgr 43 projectiles... Which I guess is kinda obvious as why else would the 12,8cm Pzgr 43 have cannelures for sole use in a pjk44 case whose mouth is 165mm dia.

So so while the 12,8cm Flak40 is fixed round unlike the Jagdtiger 12,8cm PJK44 two piece loading, the flak40 with Pzgr must surely require assistance from two people when loading... Else one strong brute
Click to expand...

Some pictures to enrich the post, also note how funny is soldiers holding a 128mm round, and soldiers holding 75mm sherman rounds :D


2n0lekh.jpg1598916.jpg1598920.jpgwwii0080.jpgH.Dv.119-419 12,8 cm Pak80 -3.jpglw35071_1_1.jpg
 
The 12,8 cm in the first tread is an original one, the 12,8 cm in the other post is 100% a copy, made in a Hungarian factory that in the days of the cold war made projectiles, the man who made these was an American guy . this was about 15-years ago, I have been talking with this man and his filosofie was that, in those times you could find many flak cases for the 12,8 cm but no projectiles so he ask the guys in the factory to produce 20 projectiles,. 10 and 10 and they did
The fake projectiles are not stamped on the base, the picture with the tracer unit is interesting only the little tracer element is original the rest is fake.,
Regards
Ben
 
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