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German 20mm

MissingSomething

MissingSomething

Well-Known Member
Here was a weekend Gun show find....

IMG_1890.jpg


Case headstamp -

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Bullet - avk11d40 (small white writing) auy15b41148g (painted with Wafnampt in center Wa???)

IMG_1882.jpg


Bullet Base - Marked - B.d.Z. 1513 eed (on top) 2E2 1942 (bottom)

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20mm

The only thing I can see that is odd about your 20mm Oerlikon round is that it appears to have the wrong fuse in it.

It would appear to be a normal 2cm Pzsprgr. o. Zerl (APHE shell without self destruct) fitted with a Bd.Z 1513 base fuze. However, the red ring painted above the driving band indicates the tracer colour, so it is a 2cm Pzspgr. L'spur o. Zerl (APHE tracer without self destruct), in which case it should have the Bd.Z 1514 base fuze, which is simply a 1513 with a tracer element at the back.

I think it is unlikely that the shell was orignally fitted with the wrong fuze at the factory. It is more likely a wrong fuze was fitted when the shell was de-bugged - always assuming it has been!

If you want a drawing of the 1513 fuze let me know and I will post one.

Regards
TonyE
 
I have often seen these API shells with base plug made of Bd.Z.1513 - all markings on fuze are present but it's body has been cut off at the end of threaded part and inner parts removed.
 
Hey,

I'm not sure this round is correct all the way.
As mentioned in the posts before, it is fitted with a basefuze, markings however indicate this round to be API tracer for tropic environment:
-The red nose indicating either tracer or TROP.
-The red ring same as the nose (there is still some discussion on the nose versus ring colour, normally the ring denotes tracer but German manuals seem to state these interchanged for TROP ammo).
- The PH stamps on he shell body certainly indicates an incendiay filling, so this is not an APHE round.

So, this round should just have the tracer base plug seen in normal API rounds, not the BdZ 1513 (just save that for another find).
I'm not sure either this shell was ever fitted on the MG-FF casing, I only know it from FLAK 30/38, but that might very well be lack of knowledge on my side.

greetz,

Menno.
 
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If the shell would have been made for MGFF it should have a Luftwaffe WaA-stamp instead of the now visible Army eagle.
I agree with Pzgr40/42 that this round is a wrong combination.
 
20mm

You are right, I did not notice the "Ph" stamp for the phosphorous filling, so it is indeed an API not an APHE. My apologies.

As for the "fuze", I agree it would be a tracer base plug. I don't know whether this shell was fitted to the FF, but I think it was used on the MG 151/20.

Regards
TonyE
 
Here a picture of an API shell base plug, made using Bd.Z.1513 body. This is a real thing, taken from a complete original MG151/20 cartridge. As said, I have seen quite many of these.
 

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  • BdZ1513.jpg
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Ok, thanks for the info guys.....

Now that I received more info... I got curious :neutral:

I got the round and the projectile did not fit correctly in the case...

Took the fuze out..... its not the right thread :tinysmile_cry_t4:

IMG_1891.jpg


The good news is the filling has been removed from the projectile....

IMG_1892.jpg


Now the big question... where to find a proper fuze and what case it belongs to to make it correct.
 
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Now the big question... where to find a proper fuze and what case it belongs to to make it correct.
Click to expand...

Answer from the IAA web site:

For the projectile you will need a 20x138B case made in 1940 and a tracer screw for the base of the projectile.

For your FF case you will need an "air force" API projectile with a blue band, the base plug you have will fit then.
Click to expand...

If anyone has such beasts... Please PM or email me....

Thanks!
 
Hey Tmine,

The abnahme eagle is not always a guarantee the shell was used by the forces branch it was accepted by.
For instance: Some very late war 20x119 German manufactured Madsen APHE-SD tracer rounds in use with the kriegsmarine (blue coloured shell with a red tip, neck of the casing sprayed yellow) were fitted with Luftwaffe stamped shells (the type fitted with the short base), there only was (is, on the one I have one in my collection) a kriegsmarine ink stamp.

I also wonder what the abnahme stamp would have been on some very rare rounds like the 5cm M-Pz Gr Patr. and 7,5 cm Pz GR Patr. for the 5 and 7,5 cm Bordkanonen, as the cases for these were the normal 5 cm PaK 38 and 7,5 cm PaK 40 cases.

[edit] I agree with the others, cut of BdZ 1513 were used as baseplugs too, there also are several examples of those in my colletion too (any guess as to why these fuzes were cut? perhaps not up to production standards ??)

greetz,

Menno.
 
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20 mm FF suggests ground mount/early war. Wa mark correct. Some may have the prewar reichswehr wa eagle. The Luftwaffe used the FFM loading.
 
Unless I have this wrong, the FF fired from a closed bolt. The FFM Luftwaffe cannon, fired from an open bolt, relying on forward momentum and inertia, to partially buffer the recoil.
 
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