Gyroscope for a Whitehead torpedo

[Dwight]

This gyroscope was found on the seabed nearby the Norwegian town of Bergen by divers. All iron parts are gone (except one relic part) but the brass parts are in very good condition. I have understood that the gyroscope comes from a Whitehead torpedo. I would be very Grateful for any information regarding this gyroscope!

 

[apfsds]

Hard to be certain of the exact, Whitehead model, but it is a very early one as the min rotor assembly lacks air buckets. This model was solely spring driven. Latter models were both spring and air driven and the rotor had directional ports to trap compressed air.

Super cool find!

Jason

 

[Dwight]

Many thanks for the information! Here is a picture showing the bottom left "wheel" from a different angle.

 

[Dronic69]

As per Jason's comments - appears to be one of the early Mks - perhaps posting some different angles may help, especially the top large part frame piece.

The attached diagram may also assist you..............the initial "guessimate" looks like a Mk3

Cheers
Drew

 

[Dwight]

Fantastic information and thanks! I will post some more pictures.

 

[Dwight]

Here are some more pictures.

 

[apfsds]

Here are some of my, Whitehead Gyros. My earliest has a date of 1902 on the transport box. These early ones had solid rotors without air bucket ports. Each one has slight variations. I have seen many of these over the years and still see new examples all the time that are each a little different. Yours is clearly different from my examples.

Jason

 

[Gspragge]

I never see these things over here, what should I pay for one if I did ? It's amazing really ---

 

[Dwight]

Fantastic collection of gyroscopes and thanks for showing them! My gyroscope is a very incomplete relic compared to yours but now I have a better idea what it would have looked like. Norway bought, together with Sweden, their first Whitehead torpedoes in 1875 (delivered in 1876). The German heavy cruiser "Blücher" was hit and sunk (the ship was also hit by two 28 cm shells) by two Whitehead Mk V torpedoes in April 1940, so I guess several models of the Whitehead torpedo was in use in Norway during the period 1876-1940.

Talking about torpedoes and relics, take a look at the attached pictures. I think this is a German torpedo director used on larger surface ships, more precisely a “Brücke Nacht Ziel Apparat” (BNZA). I am however not sure! Any information would be much appreciated!

The “base”, which is heavily damaged, has a diameter of 26 cm and weighs almost 16 kilo. From what I can see, the material is a combination of brass/bronze and steel and it is marked with “Carl Zeiss, Jena, Nr. 1” and the Reichsmarine symbol (M over an anchor). This relic comes from the German light cruiser “Königsberg” and was found by divers after the war.

“Königsberg” took part in Operation Weserübung, the invasion of Norway in April 1940. While attacking Bergen, she was damaged by Norwegian coastal artillery, and sunk by British bombers the following day in the harbour of Bergen.

 

[Natter]

Fantastic collection of gyroscopes and thanks for showing them! My gyroscope is a very incomplete relic compared to yours but now I have a better idea what it would have looked like. Norway bought, together with Sweden, their first Whitehead torpedoes in 1875 (delivered in 1876). The German heavy cruiser "Blücher" was hit and sunk (the ship was also hit by two 28 cm shells) by two Whitehead Mk V torpedoes in April 1940, so I guess several models of the Whitehead torpedo was in use in Norway during the period 1876-1940.

The following Whitehead-models were used by the norwegian navy/coastal artillery in the period 1875-1940:
Model I
Model II
Model IIIa
Model IIIb
Model IIIc
Model IVa
Model IVb
Model IVc
Model IVd
Model IVe
Model IVf
Model Va
Model Vb1
Model Vb2
Model Vc1
Model Vc2
Model Vd
Model Ve
Model VIa
Model VIb
Model VIc
Model VII
Model VIIIa
Model VIIIb

Model VIII was used as the basis for the first norwegian torpedodesign: Modell IX in 1918. We also made further naval torpedo Models (X-XV) until 1940, as well as several aerial torpedoes.

Kaholmen torpedobattery at Oscarsborg was equipped with 9 Model Vd torpedoes in 1940, of which two were fired at Blücher on the morning of 9. april (the warheads had been relaborated from 100 kg guncotton to 150 kg TNT in 1939).

Talking about torpedoes and relics, take a look at the attached pictures. I think this is a German torpedo director used on larger surface ships, more precisely a “Brücke Nacht Ziel Apparat” (BNZA). I am however not sure! Any information would be much appreciated!

Comparing to photos I have of german Brücken-Zielapparat (+ RZA, TZA and Sch.Z.A.'s) I can't see any match - neither exact or in similarity.

 

[Dwight]

Many thanks for the information! Very interesting! Is it possible to say which Whitehead-model my relic gyroscope was used in?

When it comes to the BNZA, I thought that the item I show here, in some way resembles the BNZA found here (photo 3 and 4):

http://www.tvre.org/en/development-of-torpedo-fire-control-systems-for-the-kriegsmarine

Especially the "black tube" at the bottom of the torpedo director. But it is only my guess and I am not sure! I would be very grateful for any information regarding this item.

 

[Dwight]

I think that the part which I have put a red circle around, resembles the part on the left hand side of the horizontal "black tube" showed in the link (photo 3 and 4). "Königsberg" was launched in 1927 and commissioned in 1929, which fits the time line of the development of the BNZA 2. But this is only my humble assumption!


g

 

[Dronic69]

Yes I can see the similarities with photos 3 & 4

 

[Dwight]

Many thanks for your comment! As seen on the pictures I posted, my item is marked with "Nr. 1". I am not sure if this is some sort of serial number or if it is a number indicating that "Königsberg" had several of these instruments.

 

[Natter]

Many thanks for the information! Very interesting! Is it possible to say which Whitehead-model my relic gyroscope was used in?

Probably not, although more information on the torpedo (warhead or excersice-head) and the location it was found might give an indication (for instance, if it was found within the area covered by the Kvarven shore battery, it could be a lost exersice-torpedo from that site - we know what torpedoes they had).

When it comes to the BNZA, I thought that the item I show here, in some way resembles the BNZA found here (photo 3 and 4): http://www.tvre.org/en/development-of-torpedo-fire-control-systems-for-the-kriegsmarine
Especially the "black tube" at the bottom of the torpedo director. But it is only my guess and I am not sure! I would be very grateful for any information regarding this item.

I think that the part which I have put a red circle around, resembles the part on the left hand side of the horizontal "black tube" showed in the link (photo 3 and 4). "Königsberg" was launched in 1927 and commissioned in 1929, which fits the time line of the development of the BNZA 2. But this is only my humble assumption!

I agree that a part of your device resembles BNZA 2, but not overall in my opinion (from what documents/photos I have here). But, by all means: I am not an expert on german optical instruments of any kind, I just have some interest of torpedodirectors - a topic I have discussed with an actual expert who have contributed to my collection of photos (I'm well aware of the site you linked to, which was developed by a now dead contact of mine - he utilized a lot of documents/info provided by me, sadly without my knowledge/consent nor credit :-/ ).

I don't know what kind of instruments that Königsberg were equipped with on the bridge, but I will ask Huxmann who wrote the book on the history of the cruiser and the salvage-operation in Bergen (as it happenes, we just recently discussed the topic of torpedodirectors on the old norwegian torpedoboats used by Kriegsmarine ). I can't see it being mentioned in the book, but he might have the info anyway (the torpedobatteries had RZA though - probably RZA 1 or 2).

The part that you have circled is a lamp for illuminating the dials - it's a standard component found on numerous KM-equipment, so I'm not sure it's a good proof of ID.

 

[Dwight]

Again many thanks! Looking forward to hear what you find out!

 

[Natter]

I have discussed with an actual expert who have contributed to my collection of photos

I reached out to my german optics expert friend, and here is his reply on your photos:

That is an interesting fish you have there. It certainly isn't a BNZA 2 part, much, much to early. I can ID and date it if you can provide me with the Zeiss serial number - it is there, I am sure. I suspect 53586, but I might be wrong.

So: If you can exmine the part and perhaps locate the serialnumber, you might get the exact answer.

 

[Dwight]

Many thanks and very interesting! For a possible serial number, see post 14 and 9 (photo of markings). The only "serial number" I can find is "Nr. 1". I am however not sure if this is a serial number. It is of course possible that there is a number inside the item, but I have not tried to take it apart.

 

[Dwight]

I had a second look and found this (I think):

"Facherschuss /sec.X0,8 sec."


"St.B. Schiffsdrehung B.B."


"Einzelschuss /sec.X0,4 sec."

I guess this have something to with some kind of shooting. Maybe it is related to the aiming of the guns of the "Königsberg"?

 

[Alpini]

The Word "Fächerschuss" is torpedo releated. In a "Fächerschuss" multiple torpedos are launched withhin little bit different angles to increase the chance of hitting the target.