Help on this german WW1 shell !

[Dave83]

Hello i need a little help

I have this german shell it apears to be a german 120 mm WW1 shell but when i measure the diameter as in the second pic it comes only to around 118 mm !
Will this be correct or could it be a german 115mm shell ?

thanks in advance

wbr David

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Measure on the Driving band for exact calibre

Dave for an accurate dimension you need to measure it across the lowest point on the driving band (Lands)-as you have a vernier caliper this will give you a really accurate dimension of the calibre as the copper band will not have decreased in size due to corrosion and if you measure and get an odd size try it over a few places on the engraved "Lands" on the band as the shell body may have "swollen" slightly when it burst if it is a "Shrapnel" shell.

 

[US-Subs]

Dave for an accurate dimension you need to measure it across the lowest point on the driving band (Lands)-as you have a vernier caliper this will give you a really accurate dimension of the calibre as the copper band will not have decreased in size due to corrosion and if you measure and get an odd size try it over a few places on the engraved "Lands" on the band as the shell body may have "swollen" slightly when it burst if it is a "Shrapnel" shell.

You're right that the copper won't shrink, and it will stretch, sometimes significantly, with the body. Several times I've found where 155mm illumination rounds have ejected their payload from relatively thin-walled bodies, then lost the rotating band afterward. We used to blame the missing bands on scrappers stealing metal from the ranges, but then on several occasions we found the bands, complete and intact, off the projectile and laying in the field. Just saw another this last week in a local EOD collection. I measured one that I have, the inside diameter was 156mm, more than the outside should have been. Otherwise it looks uniform and correct.

 

[Dave83]

thanks both of you

thanks both of you for the help i will measure the dia on the driving band !

wbr

David

 

[Yodamaster]

Hi David,
have you more dimensions (length, width of driving band, distance between driving band and bottom,...) ?
I found three different shells who like on your shell !

Yoda

 

[Dave83]

Hi yodamaster

here are the required dimensions

Width of the driving band : 123mm

distance between driving band and bottom : 15-16mm

lenght : 250-251 mm

width of driving band : 14-15mm

thanks for your help

wbr David

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Interesting to note !

You're right that the copper won't shrink, and it will stretch, sometimes significantly, with the body. Several times I've found where 155mm illumination rounds have ejected their payload from relatively thin-walled bodies, then lost the rotating band afterward. We used to blame the missing bands on scrappers stealing metal from the ranges, but then on several occasions we found the bands, complete and intact, off the projectile and laying in the field. Just saw another this last week in a local EOD collection. I measured one that I have, the inside diameter was 156mm, more than the outside should have been. Otherwise it looks uniform and correct.

That is interesting as I have never seen an example where the shell has shed the entire band.
Possibly one of the most usual effects is the band splitting-see example, 18 Pounder Shrapnel shell which expands due to the pressure of the expelling charge causes the shell body to expand up to and sometimes beyond its "elastic limit" and can leave a very clear cut/split in the band.
It seems to to be a fairly common problem on the 18 Pounder Shrapnel shells as I have seen a fair few of them damaged in this manner.
I am thinking that the brittleness of the copper band must be either a material spec fault or the amount of work put into it in order to swage onto the body causing it to become brittle.

 

[Dronic69]

Hi Chris,

From your pic, looks like the crack has also followed into the projectile itself? (or as you stated, the projectile expanded beyond its "elastic limit" and crack itself + the driving band?)

Would be interesting if this is could be isolated down to specific manufacturer's process (poor QA?) as there are a number of other 18pdr projectiles that have a "healthy" fired driving band still attached????

If so, I suppose in wartime production, the objective was to produced quantity not quality (in that the projectile functioned as designed) and the bottom line it was meant to blow up anyway!

Just some thoughts.....
Cheers
Drew

 

[US-Subs]

That is interesting as I have never seen an example where the shell has shed the entire band.
Possibly one of the most usual effects is the band splitting-see example, 18 Pounder Shrapnel shell which expands due to the pressure of the expelling charge causes the shell body to expand up to and sometimes beyond its "elastic limit" and can leave a very clear cut/split in the band.
It seems to to be a fairly common problem on the 18 Pounder Shrapnel shells as I have seen a fair few of them damaged in this manner.
I am thinking that the brittleness of the copper band must be either a material spec fault or the amount of work put into it in order to swage onto the body causing it to become brittle.

155mm - Sorry, no shots of the projos.

 

[Yodamaster]

So, what did I found ?
Two possibilities : German 12 cm Schrap (first drawing) or German 12 cm Spreng (second drawing). This two projectiles were made by the germans for use with the french 120 mm gun Mle 1888.
When I look to your third pic, I think that I see something like the form of a powder place in the bottom. Therefor, I think you have the Schrapnell version. In the two possibilities, you are missing the upper part of your shell.
To confirm.

Yoda

 

[Dave83]

More pics

Here are some better snaps of my shell !

Thanks to all of you for your input on this

wbr

David

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Shrapnel shell !

With that reduced diameter chamber in the base of the shell it is almost certainly a "Shrapnel" shell minus its top and fuze.
The "chamber" is where the expelling charge would be whereas an explosive shell wouls likely have a tapering diameter towards the base and would not appear so well defined.
I am with Yoda on this one.
Nice piece of history.