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ID on MkVll projectiles.
- Thread starter Shawy
- Start date
Hi Shawy,
I agree with Roger on this - the US contract .303s during the Great War used mouth crimping, as their manufacturing equipment could not perform the indent crimp. They used the same .303 bullet otherwise, (with the original lower cannelure still present) but added the higher and thinner one. I can't quite make out the stamp on the base of the bullet. Four companies made these: Winchester Repeating Arms, Remington Arms, Peters and US Cartridge Company. The stamp on your bullet might correspond with one of those. As Roger suggests, it might be the bullet and case have got mixed up in the process of making it inert.
I agree with Roger on this - the US contract .303s during the Great War used mouth crimping, as their manufacturing equipment could not perform the indent crimp. They used the same .303 bullet otherwise, (with the original lower cannelure still present) but added the higher and thinner one. I can't quite make out the stamp on the base of the bullet. Four companies made these: Winchester Repeating Arms, Remington Arms, Peters and US Cartridge Company. The stamp on your bullet might correspond with one of those. As Roger suggests, it might be the bullet and case have got mixed up in the process of making it inert.
Hi roger, just to help clear things up a bit. The round in question is not a contact rnd,it was manufactured by royal laboratory in 1917 and WAS nitro filled, it has only been pulled for ID. ALL my collection is covered by a FAC. The stamp on the base is I'm afraid unreadable but I suspect it is a circle the same as the other R/L rnd in the photo. The length and weight are correct apart from a few grains +\- . and all are nonmagnetic. Without sectioning it I won't know and I'm not prepared to do that. Once again thanks for your input. I'll put some photos of US contract .303 up later. Regards Pete.
Pete,
Thanks for the extra information. Seeing as you can vouch for the connection between the case and the bullet, this makes it quite an interesting round. The evidence would suggest that it is a US made bullet, but with the case being filled and completed at Royal Laboratory. While cases were filled at locations different from manufacture in the UK, I don't know if this occurred with component parts from US factories and UK filling stations. Perhaps there is another reason.
Here is a photo of one of my double cannelured bullets (fired), found near Thiepval Wood.
Thanks for the extra information. Seeing as you can vouch for the connection between the case and the bullet, this makes it quite an interesting round. The evidence would suggest that it is a US made bullet, but with the case being filled and completed at Royal Laboratory. While cases were filled at locations different from manufacture in the UK, I don't know if this occurred with component parts from US factories and UK filling stations. Perhaps there is another reason.
Here is a photo of one of my double cannelured bullets (fired), found near Thiepval Wood.
Attachments
Hi Justin,thanks for the imput,I've also got the same rnd. Trouble is its 1.2830in the Brit rnd is 1.2600, not sure why. I'll put some photos up soon. I don't think US rnds were used as separates in Brit munitions factories we supplied our own components to our own factories as far as I know. The rnd and case were made at GCF3 Blackpole Worcestershire. I've just had the rnd under a scope and it's possiblely got a P on it I'm not sure. Think this is one for litriture boys, if they used contract projectiles in home cases then that's my answer if not then I'm stumped. Regards Pete.
The only double cannelured .303" bullets I have seen were from tracer rounds.
They were double cannelured to reduce moisture penetration, the cases being cannelured into both cannelures or the bottom one was cannelured and multiple crimps were used on the top one.
The cannelures also hold beeswax or lanolin which was originally for lubrication but was found also to aid waterproofing.
They were double cannelured to reduce moisture penetration, the cases being cannelured into both cannelures or the bottom one was cannelured and multiple crimps were used on the top one.
The cannelures also hold beeswax or lanolin which was originally for lubrication but was found also to aid waterproofing.
AE501,I think this is one for the guys who have access to official documents and such. I tend to side with Justin on this I've compaired it to the others in the photo and it may be a US contract,need one of the document guys to confirm it. I've also seen the cannelures on tracers AE501. The crimps were pin crimps though,still double cannelures just pinned instead of crimped. Interesting. Regards Pete.
peashooter
BOCN Supporter
Please can you tell me which Tracers you are talking about with the double cannular, the only one I know of is the DI Tracer which has a normal cannular and then a knurled ring around higher up for identification. I have a lot of original drawings but none with a double cannular.
Richard.
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peashooter
BOCN Supporter
Pete, which round was made at GCF£ Blackpole?
Right here goes with the rest of the questions
Firstly, You have a Canadian Bullet in the picture, the one with the 8 point star/asterix but no Canadian case??
Second, the Dum,Dum should have a D on the base if manufactured by the Dum Dum Arsenal, Calcutta But RL did supply componants to India. It is a very nice late headstamp.
Last but not least, The MkVII with the double cannular is definitly a US made bullet highley likley Peter's with the P on the base. You have to remember that most of the US .303 was crap " Including Peters ammo" and was either binned, used for training or reloaded by the French, we supplied a lot of componants to the French and lots of Ammo. They either completly reworked the ammo or just added crimps/primmer crimps, the mention of the dotstab crimps would make me think it is a french rework/reload.
cheers
Richard.
gravelbelly
Well-Known Member
I have ten rounds, all headstamped U 15 VII and with double cannelured bullets. The lead bases of the bullets are stamped U.
gravelbelly
gravelbelly
Having looked at the photo of the base of the double cannelured bullet again, it does look like a P and agree with Richard this is probably a Peters bullet. The star and the S stamp on the other bullets are not consistent with the headtsamps on the cases, as Richard points out, so can we assume that at some point in manufacture/post manufacture the bullets and cases have got mixed? No idea how or why.
Gravelbelly's U stamp on the bullet base works as a Remington-UMC made bullet and fits perfectly with the U stamped case.
Gravelbelly's U stamp on the bullet base works as a Remington-UMC made bullet and fits perfectly with the U stamped case.
peashooter
BOCN Supporter
If it is an "S" then it is a bit odd normally Dum Dum would have a "D" or an "N" for Northern curcuit, but it is not unheard off to have Kirkee bullets in Dum Dum Cases. But it dosent look like any of the "S" bullet base stamps I have seen the "S" is usually much more pronounced and there is usually a dot either above the "S" or to the right of the "S" dont know what the dot indicates. They are not joined that that looks like an "8" to be or a very poor "B"
Rich
Rich