Identification of early rounds.

[cyclops]

I have had the first two rounds in my collection for over 40 years but have never managed to identify them. The last I have just acquired. The shrapnell shell case is 46.4 x 123R the base fuzed shell case is 37.5 X126R. Both of these two are heavily copper plated and neither case has any headstamps., just a pressed in primer. The lone shell is I believe Russian 47mm but the fuze thread is the same as No. 241 @ 16T.P.I. Could this have been modified . (when spun in the the lathe the fuze has a slight wobble or run out.)

 

[adrian]

Those aren't 'early rounds' these are early rounds:
470 years old.

 

[Hoeksel]

Can you share the rim diameters as well? With that info I might be able to identify.

 

[earni74]

It looks like the 2 copper washed rounds are 47mm Nordenfelt and the lone projectile is Russian

 

[MINENAZ16]

Nice and uncommon rounds.
Thanks for sharing.
Nordenfelt made this kind of fuze.
I know a T&P 22s and a 8-sec for Russia with exactly the same shape. You could check graduations on your fuze.
Could you post measurments (diameter and length) of your three projectiles ?
The second (pointed) could be 1.5in Nordenfelt : https://www.bocn.co.uk/threads/1-5-nordenfelt-projectiles.102487/#post-312282
Thank you.

 

[cyclops]

Nice and uncommon rounds.
Thanks for sharing.
Nordenfelt made this kind of fuze.
I know a T&P 22s and a 8-sec for Russia with exactly the same shape. You could check graduations on your fuze.
Could you post measurments (diameter and length) of your three projectiles ?
The second (pointed) could be 1.5in Nordenfelt : https://www.bocn.co.uk/threads/1-5-nordenfelt-projectiles.102487/#post-312282
Thank you.

The dimensions of shells etc. as follows- The 47mm copper shell is 170mm including fuze and case rim 55.35mm. The nose vented fuze is graduated to 22sec. No I.D. number. The 37mm coper coated shell is 138mm long and the rim diameter 47.14mm. The Russian shell is 146mm long. Looking for fuze details of that one. I can't find any ref. to fuze No. 22. Hope this helps.

 

[cyclops]

The dimensions of shells etc. as follows- The 47mm copper shell is 170mm including fuze and case rim 55.35mm. The nose vented fuze is graduated to 22sec. No I.D. number. The 37mm coper coated shell is 138mm long and the rim diameter 47.14mm. The Russian shell is 146mm long. Looking for fuze details of that one. I can't find any ref. to fuze No. 22. Hope this helps.

Just checked the link and that's the 37mm or should I say 1.5" Nordenfelt? That's one of them identified. Many thanks.

 

[earni74]

cyclops, would you sell them
Mick

 

[cyclops]

cyclops, would you sell them
Mick

I don't want to sell at the moment having got interested in collecting again after several years lay off. more interested in the obscure these days.. Still interested in that 37mm you have listed,

 

[cyclops]

Can you share the rim diameters as well? With that info I might be able to identify.

The rim diameters are as follows. 47mm 55.35mm 37mm 47.14mm

 

[Hoeksel]

I am not aware of a 47x123R55, what comes closest I think is a cut down 42x195R55.5 1.65 inch light Nordenfelt.
The 37x126R47 could be a cut down French Hotchkiss 25x193R47,2 mm or something unknown.

Can you show images of the bottom? This might help for ID.

 

[earni74]

I don't want to sell at the moment having got interested in collecting again after several years lay off. more interested in the obscure these days.. Still interested in that 37mm you have listed,

It is the 37mm that i am interested in but i understand your answer
Mick

 

[cyclops]

I am not aware of a 47x123R55, what comes closest I think is a cut down 42x195R55.5 1.65 inch light Nordenfelt.
The 37x126R47 could be a cut down French Hotchkiss 25x193R47,2 mm or something unknown.

Can you show images of the bottom? This might help for ID.

Please see photos of case bases. I've compared the hotchkiss I have in my possession regarding the 37mm case at the point where the case would have been cut the diameters are different, the case pictured would have had to be resized to fit the shell and there is no sign that the case has been resized. As for the 47x123R55 it's a dead size fit for the 47mm Jap Naval case as supplied by Vickers? perhaps an early version, bit small for shrapnel?

 

[cyclops]

It is the 37mm that i am interested in but i understand your answer
Mick

As I said in my previous message I'm not interested in selling but I would exchange for your 37mm Austrian round you have advertised. Bear in mind there is no base fuze and some copper worn away.

 

[Hoeksel]

Primers indeed are of on old pattern and could very well be of British manufacture (they exported a lot, also to Japan). So a cut down Hotchkiss is of the table for sure.
As for the Japanese 47x123R55 you mention, that is unknown to me so would be new info for me. I will ask my Dutch friend "Mr. Japanese" to check this thread.

 

[earni74]

Hi cyclops, the swap sounds fair to me 37mm for 37mm
Mick

 

[cyclops]

Hi cyclops, the swap sounds fair to me 37mm for 37mm
Mick

Hi Earnie, I'll attach some more photos showing area of missing plating , is it o.k. to exchange details on here, email address etc.?

 

[earni74]

Hi cyclops, its rare that the plating is complete, your one is fine by me, here is my email address
cheers
Mick

 

[cyclops]

Primers indeed are of on old pattern and could very well be of British manufacture (they exported a lot, also to Japan). So a cut down Hotchkiss is of the table for sure.
As for the Japanese 47x123R55 you mention, that is unknown to me so would be new info for me. I will ask my Dutch friend "Mr. Japanese" to check this thread.

Hi, A couple of pictures of the rounds I was talking about, both base fuzed 47 mm. I've included shots of the head stamps. I have been told they were made in the U.K. for Japanese naval use. I have cases with similar markings that are Japanese but others may have different ideas . They are certainly British manufacture, one EOC (Elswick Ordnance Co.) and the other Cf (Cordite full charge) Maybe someone has the definitive answer. I'm still hoping for info' on the correct fuze for my Russian 47mm shell.

 

[wingsofwrath]

I think these are most likely for the Russian 47mm Hotchkiss revolver cannon used as fortification flanking guns, but manufactured by Nordenfelt, because at one point the Russians adopted 57mm Nordenfelt guns for their newer forts and they presumably switched ammunition production to the latter for their earlier guns as well.

The time fuze itself is definitely a Russian 8-sec fuze of a type I've seen on 57mm Russian Nordenfelt shrapnel shells and the case dimensions seem to fit with a few photos of plates for the 47mm Hotchkiss revolver guns from a Russian manual I picked up on a forum a few years back. Those have a nominal case lenght of 131.5mm.