Good Morning Gentlemen. Can anyone give me a coplete list of the side markings found on Indian Martini Henry cartridges. Also I would like to know the meaning of the N & S markings on the round ball loads. I think they stood for Northern and Southern circuit, but what dose this mean. Seeing as the round ball loads were used mainly by police I have allways thaught it refered to police districts. Regards David.
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Indian Martini cartridges.
- Thread starter Lancaster
- Start date
I need to clarify my earlier post. Round ball loads are found with N^I or S^I. I don't think it is railway related. What I want to know is at which arsenal were they produced . Perhaps it refers to Northern Circars, but there is no southern Circars, that is the Corramandell coast. David.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
The North and South Circuits in India were originally the judicial areas of Circuit Judges. They then became applicable to a wider range of government departments including those of the military inspectors.
Those rounds marked with "S" were made at Kirkee, whilst those with an "N" were made at Dum Dum. The connection between the judicial circuits and the police use of the "N" and "S" marked single ball rounds may explain why they are marked thus, whilst the normal Ball Mark III rounds for the army were marked with the normal "DF" and "KF" marks.
Regards
TonyE
Those rounds marked with "S" were made at Kirkee, whilst those with an "N" were made at Dum Dum. The connection between the judicial circuits and the police use of the "N" and "S" marked single ball rounds may explain why they are marked thus, whilst the normal Ball Mark III rounds for the army were marked with the normal "DF" and "KF" marks.
Regards
TonyE
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
The Indian single ball Snider rounds were the "Cartridge SA Ball BL Smoothbore Mark I (Rifle and Carbine 2 1/2 DRS) and the Mark II with the same nomenclature. 2 1/2 Drams is 70 grains.
The Mark II differed from the Mark I in having a strawboard wad between the ball and charge and , if made from converted ordinary ball rounds, the cotton wool above the propellant charge would be removed.
I do not have examples of either of these nor have I ever seen any in the UK. The Mark II is known to have been made at both Kirkee and Dum Dum from records.
That is about all I can tell you.
Regards
TonyE
The Mark II differed from the Mark I in having a strawboard wad between the ball and charge and , if made from converted ordinary ball rounds, the cotton wool above the propellant charge would be removed.
I do not have examples of either of these nor have I ever seen any in the UK. The Mark II is known to have been made at both Kirkee and Dum Dum from records.
That is about all I can tell you.
Regards
TonyE
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TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
I certainly think that is a fair description!
All the early Snider rounds are hard to find. I am still missing the Pattern II and III but have the rest of the ball and buckshot rounds, so if you know of either of these that are available I would appreciate a tip-off!
regards
TonyE
All the early Snider rounds are hard to find. I am still missing the Pattern II and III but have the rest of the ball and buckshot rounds, so if you know of either of these that are available I would appreciate a tip-off!
regards
TonyE
Tony,
Going slightly off the main topic of Martini rounds, re your comments on the Northern & Southern Judicial Circuits and the police, would the same apply to the .303" Ball rounds marked with S or N (rather than KF or DF)? Must confess I thought it was only the Military who used .303 out there.
Regards,
Roger.
Going slightly off the main topic of Martini rounds, re your comments on the Northern & Southern Judicial Circuits and the police, would the same apply to the .303" Ball rounds marked with S or N (rather than KF or DF)? Must confess I thought it was only the Military who used .303 out there.
Regards,
Roger.
Tony. In a fit of dementure I sold my ammunition collection back in 1989. I had a full run of snider cartridges from Patt 3. I got the Patt 3 from Gordon Conway and sold it to Martin Golland. I moved to the states in1996 and have been trying to duplicate the collection.I have managed to get a run from 5 to 10 but I am still looking for the rest. David.
TonyE
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
The ball rounds are a problem. I am assuming for the moment that the rounds headstamped "N I", "S I", "D I" and "K I" are all Cordite Mark II and that all the Cordite Ball Mark VI are headstamped as such.
Looking at my examples, it seems that the change in headstamp from "D" and "K" to "DF" and KF" took place during production of the Cordite ball Mark II as this exists with both codes, but since the Mark II was undated it is difficult to give a date. The use of the "N" and "S" codes seems to have stopped about 1911. The latest Mark VI "N" headstamp I have is 4-11 and the latest "S" I have is 1-08. Roger - you collect dates more assiduously than I do so can you narrow it down further?
Going back to the Cordite Ball Mark II, the question then arises as to why there were both "N I" and "D I" headstamps for Dum Dum and both "S I" and "K I" for Kirkee? Is it possible that the "N" and "S" headstamps were for the police/militia and the "D" and "K" headstamps were for the Indian Army? I don't know.
Were the police/militia under the control of the Indian Army or whatever passed for the Indian Home Office?
It is a conundrum that has puzzled me for a while and for which I have not found a satisfactory explanation. All thoughts appreciated!
David - The early ones are really difficult to find as apart from the Potet base on the Mark I the Pattern II and III are hard to identify away from their packets. I have two Pattern I which are slightly different but still need the II and III as I said. if I find a packet I will let you know!
Cheers
TonyE
Looking at my examples, it seems that the change in headstamp from "D" and "K" to "DF" and KF" took place during production of the Cordite ball Mark II as this exists with both codes, but since the Mark II was undated it is difficult to give a date. The use of the "N" and "S" codes seems to have stopped about 1911. The latest Mark VI "N" headstamp I have is 4-11 and the latest "S" I have is 1-08. Roger - you collect dates more assiduously than I do so can you narrow it down further?
Going back to the Cordite Ball Mark II, the question then arises as to why there were both "N I" and "D I" headstamps for Dum Dum and both "S I" and "K I" for Kirkee? Is it possible that the "N" and "S" headstamps were for the police/militia and the "D" and "K" headstamps were for the Indian Army? I don't know.
Were the police/militia under the control of the Indian Army or whatever passed for the Indian Home Office?
It is a conundrum that has puzzled me for a while and for which I have not found a satisfactory explanation. All thoughts appreciated!
David - The early ones are really difficult to find as apart from the Potet base on the Mark I the Pattern II and III are hard to identify away from their packets. I have two Pattern I which are slightly different but still need the II and III as I said. if I find a packet I will let you know!
Cheers
TonyE
TonyE,
Ted M says that for Mk.VI ball with "S" h/s, he has 09 date, then various up to 6-11. The "N" h/s also has 09 date, then various to 7-11. Seems that they started adding months from January 1910.
Somewhere I have a h/s checklist compiled by the Australian CCA; I will dig it out and see if it adds anything to the above.
Regards,
Roger
Ted M says that for Mk.VI ball with "S" h/s, he has 09 date, then various up to 6-11. The "N" h/s also has 09 date, then various to 7-11. Seems that they started adding months from January 1910.
Somewhere I have a h/s checklist compiled by the Australian CCA; I will dig it out and see if it adds anything to the above.
Regards,
Roger