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Is the providence of a piece of Ordnance important to you?

HAZORD

HAZORD

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Personal attraction to or personal value or importance of a piece of Ordnance is a nebulous thing. It is different for everyone, and everyone is always wanting to know what their "Treasure" is worth.

I'm just asking for opinions here, and it is in regard to the Provenance of a piece and how you would value it.

If two copies of the exact same item were sitting side-by-side, and they were the same quality of original paint and lettering etc., would you pay more for one that came from a famous collection, or battle, or some such distinguished Provenance? And this is assuming they are both legal and not stolen.

As an example, I have a few British pieces that came from Thurston's collection and are in the photos in Hogg's book. I have a German piece from the Delft Museum, some Russian and Chinese pieces captured in Nam that were in the Presidio Collection, etc. They are important to me because I know their Providence, but I've learned from experience that "if you see it and want one, you better buy it right then, because you will likely never see one again." That being said, if you can get "just as good" for a lesser price, and that allows you to buy more items, is that the better choice?
 
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I think you mean Provenance.

For me, depends on the item.
Most of the time i'm happy just to get an item of interest.
When starting out collecting i bought the remains of a collection(about 20%),including the records/pics of the total collection.
Over the years,amongst all the newer items,I have managed to gather in a lot of original items to it,so it seems to have a nice symmetry.As far as my ordnance collecting goes,for me its always more about the item,rather than personalities or events 'attached' to them.Always a hard thing to prove.

A few years ago i saw a coveted framed box with 3x .50cal cases,supposedly from the Desert war,WW2.the owner wasn't too happy when i pointed out the cases were from .50cal BAT spotter,and dated,as per the headstamp, 1959!
 
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I suspect that provenance matters much less in the case of ammunition (which is, after all, a "bulk" disposable item) than with other things.

The guns themselves are far more important. WW2 Lugers in good condition with matching serial numbers are quite valuable, but imagine if a nicely engraved example presented to a famous person (e.g. Rommel) turned up, with a clear provenance - the value would be phenomenal.
 
Just ask Your wife what is the value of the items in Your collection. You will see that there is a considerable difference.

There are some pieces that are more valuable than the market price, the ones I got from my friends for example.

Bob
 
Yes in short.

It would be of very significant interest to me to have the full (or partial) provenance for any item of historic interest militaria or otherwise. To know the travels of an object from the day it was created, its cost, its value, its location, its usage, its owner and any other pertinent facts.

It wouldn't however add any value to me whether an item came from Thurston, Delft, Presidio, or if an object was found in a flea market. Obviously the inference of being in one of those collections suggests that an item is of increased quality and rarity, but just by being there doesn't add value in my view.

While provenance is and always will be important for any historic item, as Tony suggests, ordnance is a disposable item that isn't cherished by its original owner, and therefore its "Interaction" with humans famous or otherwise is less, and therefore the importance of provenance is less.

If you take Nick Masons ~$45,000,000 Ferrari 250GTO, (while Pink Floyd are awesome:), Nick's ownership itself isn't adding value, its value comes from being rare, being raced in LeMans, being used in films, being from a successful and sought after brand and being in stunning condition (which is down to Nick). In this case, it is an object that humans deem beautiful, successful, and pleasurable to interact with and even listen to.

Bovington's Tiger I is arguably rarer than the 250GTO, despite more being manufactured, less remain. Its arguably less beautiful and its interaction is arguably less enjoyable. Its provenance is just as detailed as the Ferrari, but there are more Ferrari 250GTO fans than Panzerkampfwagen VI "Tiger" Ausf. E Sd.Kfz.181 fans.

While other humans might disagree with me, they are of course wrong, as the latter has a catchier name, better looks, sounds better, and if Juan Manuel Fangio had driven it, it would be beyond priceless

Enough of my ramblings, all JMHO
Rich
 
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RichardB said:
Bovington's Tiger I is arguably rarer than the 250GTO, despite more being manufactured, less remain. Its arguably less beautiful and its interaction is arguably less enjoyable. Its provenance is just as detailed as the Ferrari, but there are more Ferrari 250GTO fans than Panzerkampfwagen VI "Tiger" Ausf. E Sd.Kfz.181 fans.

While other humans might disagree with me, they are of course wrong, as the latter has a catchier name, better looks, sounds better, and if Juan Manuel Fangio had driven it, it would be beyond priceless
Click to expand...

The problem with a Tiger tank is driving it home from the auction....

What I find a bit odd is the obsession among some collectors just to own a classic vehicle, never taking it out of the garage. Surely most of the fun is in driving it?

It's a bit like the collectors of toys who value most highly examples still in their original sealed boxes. I find that hard to understand. But I'd better be careful, or I might stray into the topic of sealed ammo packets which some collectors love.... :crossedlips:
 
I agree with Tony in regards to using an item. I met a gentleman at a gun show that told me he had owned a fantastic Luger collection, and had never fired any of them. When the collection was stolen from him, he regretted never having fired any of them, so now he shoots any that he gets his hands on.
 
Often, especially with very old items, only the provenance makes an item valuable. Take for instance early 19th century cannon balls. Without provenance they have only small value. If you know the battle and by whom the ball was fired, the story behind this old piece of iron, the iron ball becomes valuable.
Bellifortis.
 
It doesn't bother me as long as the item is genuine.

I have to admit it is nice to see a round I own in a book that someone has for sale..........but in this day and age of the internet our photographs get pinched by others sometimes. I once bought a CD from a well known American seller all about butterfly bombs. Very interesting it was too but it was a bit of a shock when I found one of my photos that I took of some of my M83 fuzes on the CD that I had just bought.

Dave.
 
Provenance on ordnance related militaria is probably less important than items like personal equipment etc. where a known original owner can be hugely important . As others have stated , however , it's essential on items that are known to have had fakes produced . In my own field , I'm thinking of the No 12 & No 44 grenades , either of these would be very , very expensive to buy , possibly the most valuable of all standard production grenades [but not necessarily the rarest] . As it's well known that fakes meant to deceive have appeared from time to time , a cast iron provenance would be essential . Mike .
 
Hi Hazord,thanks for asking this interesting and thought provoking question.
No simple answer I think.
Value is determined by desirability and availability,one person may covet an item more than another and therefore pay more to
acquire it,we all see it on auction sites etc.
Provenance connects an item to a particular person location or event etc.And in relation to celebrities or historical figures etc etc
the provenance of that connection can increase its desirability, and therefore it's value
However a connection to some notable collector or researcher of our interest, I don't think would make much difference to the
value of an item,as our interest is more in the item itself,than that of the previous owner,in most cases I would have thought
in most cases.And that person would probably not be known outside the collecting fraternity.
Thousands of military collectibles will have come from famous battles etc,but will still only be worth the going rate,unless
connected to a special thing or person of importance.
For example,take an inert bombe,it will have a ball park value for its type and condition,say £100.If the same bombe was
proven to be one that had fallen on Buckingham palace and not gone off,that risked the life of our Monarch ,would it still be
worth £100?This would of course then be of interest not only to bombe collectors,but a much wider community.How much would someone be willing to pay to own that same bombe in that case?So yes Provenance can make a huge difference with the right connection.
Just my thoughts on this one.
Tim.
 
I agree with Tim, its a good thought provoking subject.

To my mind, cost (or value) is driven by supply and demand.
The value of an historic object is no different, where demand is interchangeable with desirability.
An objects desirability is based on its fame/imfamy, rarity, quality, beauty & provenance, with some of those factors being more subjective than others depending onthe object. This is also reflected in our responses and views.

Provenance is definitely important, but its impact on value, perceived or otherwise, will vary from one object to another and one person to another

Rich
 
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I think the ordnance in my collection with the most provenance (or maybe more sentimental value) are the first ones I collected. I was 15 years old and living in Belgium (Dad stationed there) and we went into a small antique/bric a brac shop somewhere outside Brussels. I remember seeing a dust-covered 90mm case sitting in a dark corner...I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I asked how much it was (maybe 300-500 Belgian Francs) and bought it. That opened the floodgates and now I have more than I ever thought I would! It's addicting! But to get back to the question, nothing in my collection really has any real provenance, but I love every piece.
 
When i switched from collecting Luftwaffe swords to ordnance, my first cartridge was a ground dug FLAK 8,8 case. Now i have about 100 8,8 cases, all variants etc, within my collection, this case has no real value but will never leave the collection, just because it was my starting point. Further, what I learned form the Swords episode, buy the item, not the story! i dont expect that another collector will pay more for this rusty case, because it was my first item in the collection.
 
My very first piece was a U.S. 90mm steel case that I found at the city dump.
 
Yes the sentimental value,Or an attachment to something just because it means a lot to you,or just a favourite item,
can be more powerful than a lot of provenance.
There was a thread,show your favourite item,I didn't show any as I can't narrow it down to just one,
Maybe we should run a similar thread but allow multiples.
The favourites may not be the rarest or most valuable.
Tim.
 
In the more expanded "collecting arena" (i.e. collecting in general), the importance of an object's provenance will vary.

For example, collecting inert ordnance is based on mass-produced, machined made ammunition which had only one prime purpose to "explode". Collecting examples especially the rarer ones is both self-satisfying and rewarding and IMHO provenance has little weighting. Of course there are always exceptions - experimental ammunition come to mind which normally invokes the inherent curiosity to start researching.

Collecting Japanese Samurai swords on the other hand (i.e. hand forged traditional Nihonto made ones) provenance weighs in very heavily. Why?
The Japanese have been making & selling swords for well over 800 years and during this period realized that if a sword was signed with a big name swordsmith, then it could be flogged off for a far higher price.
Today probably 80% of the swords with a "big name smith" are gimei (false signature) and those that are not may have some sort of provenance associated with it (the Emperor owned it) - ironically any associated provenance is within the actual blade construction and characteristics itself, not a piece of paper!!!

For me personally, I'll would be happy to have an original "kamakura" period (1185-1333) sword rather than who the maker was - and no chance of "gimei"!!!
As others have stated -"provenance" is more of a subjective requirement rather than objective one.
Cheers
D
 
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Like others have said its not one simple answer. To me unless it is a very special piece (rare or experimental) and its history can be verified, then I could care less where it came from. Of course I would LIKE to know its history but 9 times out of 10 thats impossible. And for certain I always buy the item not the story, atleast thats how I see it.
 
When collecting the Luftwaffe swords, the goal was to find the personalized items, like with a name, unit codes or whatever, and finding the name in the log books of the luftwaffe was even more exciting to do.
 
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