Mills grenade

[gothica7]

Come on John,

thats an absolute cop out. Its not as though we are complete fools on this forum and always like an interesting debate. It would not hurt, nor would it compromise anything you publish in the future to give us a little insight as to something you have found to provide some documentary evidence re the Israeli Mills gren. All us Mills enthusiasts would find it fascinating and it would go a long way to us understanding a little more about the Mills story.
Other members have done vast amounts of research and have often backed up their claims with some piece of historical evidence. Why cant you, as your reply seemed to indicate you are a bit reticent in publishing anything? If it isnt told no one will know but yourself.

Andy

 

[Snufkin]

Oh you tease!

John,

Whatever. We're hardly talking secrecy that impacts the security of the Free World. I, and perhaps one or two others on this forum, are now on tenter-hooks...


Tom.

 

[Millsman]

Andy

I think you are being a bit hard considering you offered no evidence at all for your considered view!

Tom

I've pieced this information together from fragments. I'll go back over my notes and put something up. May take a day or two to find it.

John

 

[gothica7]

Sorry John,
i thought you were too, i was only looking at repro parts.

Andy

 

[Millsman]

OK Guys

A small moan first. This is an internet forum and people do not normally question what everyone says. Demanding evidence just because you don't know the facts is a bit like saying someone had made something up. This is not a PhD review panel.

Let's just take it that most people know what they are talking about and leave it at that.

Information re Isreali Mills.

Source - The Rehovot - Minkov Institute in Isreal
Context - Production of weapons by the Yishuv
Facts - Underground production of weapons to use in the guerilla war against the British - In the period October 1947 to July 1948 they produced the following armaments in secret factories. 3 million 9mm bullets, 150,000 Mills Grenades, around 16,000 Sten Guns and over 200 Mortars.

I have done the research. I won't go into more detail but suffice it to say. I'M RIGHT!

John

 

[Snufkin]

Source material

John,

OK Guys

Let's just take it that most people know what they are talking about and leave it at that.

John

Not necessarily the wisest of assumptions to make...

OK Guys

I have done the research. I won't go into more detail but suffice it to say. I'M RIGHT!

John

Humblest apologies for raising any questions.

Why didn't you just put a link to the book you are quoting, [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Palestinian-Refugee-Problem-Revisited-Cambridge/dp/0521009677/ref=pd_sim_b_2"]Amazon.com: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited (Cambridge Middle East Studies) (9780521009676): Benny Morris: Books: Reviews, Prices & more@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512aOugniiL.@@AMEPARAM@@512aOugniiL[/ame]

For convenience I attach the relevant paragraph.

Tom.

 

[paul the grenade]

Alright lads! CALM DOWN NOW.:tinysmile_tongue_t: I have a pic somewhere of one in live colours. I'll search for it tonight and post a pic. From memory i think it is green with a red band near the bottom and some isreali writing round the base.
Cheers, Paul.

 

[Millsman]

Actually Tom I've never seen that book so I could not quote from it. However the factual content has been used elsewhere, published by the Rehovot - Minkov Institute.

I'm pleased that you will now accept that the Isreali Mills we all have in your collections are not a product of the 1980's, but of the 1940's or soon after. I hope Andy does too.

The 44 on the baseplugs is I believe the first year of manufacture. Another clue that the 44 is a date is that the plugs and centrepieces have the letter A on them. So it is likely that whoever cut the moulds was not a Hebrew speaker. The closeness to the production data listed to the 44 is I think more than relevant.

'Not necessarily the wisest of assumptions to make...' No but a fair and honest one. At least you should give people the benefit of the doubt. Mills grenades are a far bigger subject than most people realise and nobody has total knowledge. I have huge respect for your knowledge and Andy's as well, and I hope that when I state something you will respect that fact that I'm not going to invent it, but will have checked it out first. In this case I was 100% right, as I have been saying on this and another forum for at least 18 months.

John

 

[Millsman]

It's alright Paul. I think I've calmed down now and will happily state that Andy is a mate (another beer due soon I hope) and Tom, someone I've not met but have huge respect for. I hope we can all carry on building the knowledge of our favourite subject together.

John

 

[gothica7]

I too will say sorry John and eat humble pie, i got it wrong.

Andy

 

[millsbomber]

I thought these were made in the 1950s
http://www.millsgrenades.co.uk/images/No36%20M%20Mk%201%201940-%20present/isrealy%20sectioned.JPG

 

[paul the grenade]

heres a few pics ive found. unfortunately i dont own these examples.
cheers, paul.

 

[Snufkin]

I'm pleased that you will now accept that the Isreali Mills we all have in your collections are not a product of the 1980's, but of the 1940's or soon after.

John,

My positions unchanged regarding the Israeli No.36 types recently on the surplus market. I remain agnostic as to what decade they were made, for the reason that there has been no proof revealed that they were made in 1944, if that is what you believe the digits 44 on the base plug represent. Where are examples of 47 and 48 stamped parts for those years? The difference between 1947-8 and 1944 is significant; it isnt close or close enough.

I sense your enthusiasm when you say, The 44 on the baseplugs is I believe the first year of manufacture. Unfortunately belief and fact don't always coincide.

We have two pieces of evidence, the physical grenades and the above documented history of underground munitions manufacture from late 1947. The two may indeed connect, but that has been assumed, not proven. A desire for a particular answer shouldnt be allowed to cloud the fact that there might be plausible alternatives.



Dave and Paul,

Thanks for the photos, or links to. It's a puzzle what the script means - date, lot, batch?

Paul, the writing on your lampstand is similar to the writing on my training grenade:

Letter ?, Letter Mem //4/1/4 Letter Samekh, Letter Mem

Letter Ayin?, Letter Mem //1/2/4 Letter Samekh, Letter Mem

and there could be a date format there - 2004! Likewise with yours Dave, but is it 1955? Could definitely use some help here...





Tom

 

[pointblank0]

heres a few pics ive found. unfortunately i dont own these examples.
cheers, paul.

I see the first one doesn't have an allen type filler plug. Would this have been added by a collector or did they use the Brit style filler too?

 

[Millsman]

I too will say sorry John and eat humble pie, i got it wrong.

Andy

Hi Andy. We'll eat it together with a pint! You know a couple of times when I've been wrong and you right as well.

Hope to see you soon. John

 

[Millsman]

Tom

As all genuine Isreali plugs seem to be marked 44, I can only conclude that this was either a) a part number (unlikely) or b) The date the mould for the baseplug was made. As we have evidence of mass production close to that date I think b) is logical and probably right. As these were guerilla operations I doubt if production documents are lodged at the national archives. I'm also unaware of any other numbers or symbols being found.

I think your point about them all being made in 44 just muddies your point of view. Clearly those made at that date would have been used up quickly in training or operations. As the British left Palestine fairly promptly in 1948 many of the grenades were obviously not used in warfare against the British so they would have been used by the early IDF, and then as I have repeatedly said, as French and US supplies took over, they were probably relegated to training. I Know some were exported as I have physical evidence of this from another country.

I'm happy with my conclusions but if you want to dig deeper, I'm sure a flight to Isreal is all that's needed.

John

 

[Millsman]

I see the first one doesn't have an allen type filler plug. Would this have been added by a collector or did they use the Brit style filler too?

The Isreali plugs are not of great quality and I suspect this is a custom made refit. Mills filler plugs do not fit as the Isreali plug is fractionally larger.

I've only ever seen the allen key type on genuine Isreali 36's.

John

 

[Millsman]

I thought these were made in the 1950s
http://www.millsgrenades.co.uk/images/No36 M Mk 1 1940- present/isrealy sectioned.JPG

Not far out Dave. I suspect production ended in the 50's.

John

 

[TimG]

The '44' on this baseplug is a stamping and thus post casting process, which rules out date the mould was made.

It could be a lot number, factory number or an examiner's mark.

From what I've read of the early exploits of the Irgun there was no way they had the capability of producing this type of ordnance in 44. Also, did they need to?

TimG

 

[Millsman]

Tim

The Isreali guerilla groups were conclusively making these from Mid 1946 in bulk, I cannot understand how you could not think they had the capability to make them just a few months earlier, even if in smaller numbers. If this was a lot number then the whole production over many years was one lot. Doubtful if it was a factory mark as these factories were initially secret installations, and limited in number. Examiners mark again, just one guy checking many thousands of grenades, unlikely.

John