Kilroy was Here
Well-Known Member
See, you start a simple thread showing a nice pineapple grenade, and look what you get in response!! BOCN and it's members are the greatest!! :top:
arty:British Ordnance Collectors Network
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MK IIA1 In the Attic
- Thread starter EODGUY
- Start date
See, you start a simple thread showing a nice pineapple grenade, and look what you get in response!! BOCN and it's members are the greatest!! :top:
arty:They just recently sold a Singer 1911A1 for $167,000 USD at the RIA auction.:tinysmile_fatgrin_t
Kilroy was Here
Well-Known Member
Holy Sh*t, that's unreal.
The one I saw, was a few years ago. Maybe it was a bargain at $57,000
I wonder what my US&S is worth today. I'll have to check around and see.
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Most original US&S 1911A1's start at around $2500 and routinely get way more than that depending on condition. They really have soared in price.
Kilroy was Here
Well-Known Member
I agree "new blood' so to say. The Singer employees were surely "Gung-Ho" with their jobs of making these 1911A1's for the war effort. Our country was totally devoted to making and providing the best items for our soldiers. Like said, when the US government did the "parts interchangeability tests" in WW2, the Singer guns were the best of all .45 makers.
I agree also, the Singer sewing machines are one of the best. I have my grandmothers 1930's Singer sewing machine. It still works fine when needed. I made a pair of moccasins from thick Elk skin for hunting a few years back, and it sewed the thick Elk leather easily. I've used it to fix leather holsters and many other things. Good old American quality. :bigsmile:
Made in USA used to mean the very best there was. Still does with some items.
Sorry to Hijack your thread a bit EODGUY... it went from Grenade fuzes to .45's to sewing machines! :bigsmile:
Kilroy was Here
Well-Known Member
Thanks hink, my gun is about 95% or better, so will hopefully go for a bit more than $2500 when I sell it someday.
There's a couple on Gunbroker right now.......
Here's a strange one with serial No. 00000000 not sure what to think of this one. could be as decribed, a pre-production? or lunchbox pistol.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=206243653
another one....
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=205248083
V40
Well-Known Member
Gosh, Steve,yours does indeed look like a killer 1911A1 from Union Switch & Signal. Are they not the next in line for collectability? Mine is just a plain jane Springfield Armory, you know, the ones that have the slide mayed in Brazil. It works well as a duty gun.
Miquel,
Same way that were found in the junk car lot. Who's to know why?
Know as far as the one posted on Gunbroker, the first one, if I had seen it lying on a gun show table for sale, being a former Cop, I would instantly want to know and how did it get a 000000 or whatever how many zeros it has I'd be suspicios of that. Why, because manufactured weapons for US at the time of WWII would always start out with the designation serial number 1 unless that was for the boss in charge of the factory. Could I be right Steve?
Miquel,
Same way that were found in the junk car lot. Who's to know why?
Know as far as the one posted on Gunbroker, the first one, if I had seen it lying on a gun show table for sale, being a former Cop, I would instantly want to know and how did it get a 000000 or whatever how many zeros it has I'd be suspicios of that. Why, because manufactured weapons for US at the time of WWII would always start out with the designation serial number 1 unless that was for the boss in charge of the factory. Could I be right Steve?
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Kilroy was Here
Well-Known Member
Hi Bob, OK, good. I get carried away sometimes. I know... these threads really do take on a life of their own, and you're absolutely correct, it's all interesting.
Kilroy was Here
Well-Known Member
Thanks Mark, it's a nice original example. I've had it a long time now, maybe about 35 years. I knew what it was back then also. I got a good deal on it from a "little old man" sitting on a bench eating a hot dog at the old "Great Western Gun Show" they used to have in So. Cal. That was the best gun show of all time, but sadly it's no longer for many years now.
HaHa, being a former cop you would ask first about a serial # like on that US&S. Me, being a collector of .45's for a long time, I would want to take it all apart an look at it with my jewlers loop and opti-visor :tinysmile_twink_t2: it very well could could be a rare pre production or a test run gun, it would have to researched a bit more. Looks pretty nice to me.
Not all serials numbers during WW2 started at "1" there were so many makers of guns, and they all had there own way of numbering and keeping track. For instance, the 55,000 US&S pistols made, were in the 1,041,405 to 1,096,404 number range. And Colt duplicated 4,171 of these serial numbers on their own pistols! There is no real logic to the way guns were numbered during WW2. Some companies maybe, but not the majority.
Correct, yes Mark, the US&S is second in line on the collectability scale right behind the Singers, then comes Ithaca, Colt, & Remington-Rand
Here's the breakdown...........
Singer approx. 500
Union Switch & Signal Co. " 55,000
Ithaca Gun Co. " 335,466
Colt's Mfg. Co. " 575,632
Remington-Rand " 877,751
Total WW2 production 1,844,349
The above is the numbers accepted by the ordnance dept during WW2.
It is slightly inaccurate because there were weekly totals that spilled over into the next month, but these figures are very close, close as it can get. The actual records were either destroyed, or are missing.
Singer production figures are a mystery, and evidence suggests that most of the pistols were completed before December 1941
This info comes from Clawson's book, considered the bible on U.S. WW2 .45 auto pistols. Here's a scan of it. If you like John Brownings .45 automatic pistol,"the best automatic pistol ever invented" :wink: then this is the book to find and read.
Your Springfield Armory Brazilian .45 is not a bad gun. They're a good gun, if it shoots well and you feel it's dependable for carry, and you can hit what your shooting at, that is all that matters. I have a 70's Gold Cup I did quite a bit of custom work to, that I would bet my life on anytime. It eats any ammo and never malfunctions. that's the most important thing I'm sure you know.
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V40
Well-Known Member
Thanks Steve, I really didn't pay too much attention the numbers made. I stand corrected. Really, you are like a walking bible yourself on .45's! Who did your custom work on your Gold Cup which was a wonderful gun in it's own right. Was it "NOVAKS" in West Virginia? I have that I believe on a DVD or something like it. Cannot remember right now. It also is from Clawson. If it is different, do you and can you make another DVD for me?
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Grenademan2005
Well-Known Member
Steve, any of the 500 Singer came to Europe?
Kilroy was Here
Well-Known Member
Hi Mark, thanks. I did most of the work myself on the Gold Cup. There's a bunch of Wilson Combat parts, a Titanium trigger from another maker, and other little bits etc. I've "tuned it" up the way I like it. An old man, a gunsmith friend here where I live, did the fine checkering on the front of trigger guard and front strap of gun. He died last year, so he won't be doing too much more nice checkering. :tinysmile_cry_t: RIP Donald. Then I parkerized the frame and I used the "baked on" black "paint" gun finish on the slide.
Regards, Steve
Kilroy was Here
Well-Known Member
I think a few might have made it to Europe. I remember reading an article somewhere written by a WW2 GI, and he said that he was issued a .45 that he thought was a fake or copy and not real or something, because he had not seen one before, and it was different than his buddies .45's. It could have been a Singer, but it could have been a US&S also.
Keep your eyes open when you see .45's in the future!! you might get lucky like you have been with all those nice things you have.
Grenademan2005
Well-Known Member
I have to keep my eyes open for Singer and US&S 1911 then? The problem is that if I find one it will be inerted and US collectors doesnt like inerted guns, Im right?
Kilroy was Here
Well-Known Member
Gun collectors always like things original and in as perfect condition as possible, just like some grenade collectors I know :tinysmile_twink_t2: But with items that are rare like the Singer or US&S pistols they will always be worth more money than the more common 1911A1's even "inerted"
I am not sure how they would "inert" a .45 pistol? It might be able to be repaired back to original. It all depends what they have destroyed on the pistol!!! :tinysmile_cry_t:
If you find one of these two pistols, send some pics to me, and I will make sure it's correct before you buy it.
During the war they made more slides (the top part) than the lower frames, and some people make "mis-matched" guns and try to trick people. Sellers will take a US&S slide and put it on a Colt, or Remington-Rand frame and call it "original", so be careful!
The Singers are not even marked as a "Singer", they are marked "S. Mfg Co. Elizabeth N.J." on the slide. This has added to a lot of confusion over the years. :tinysmile_cry_t: I have a few M1911 and M1911A1's (Ithaca, Colt, Rem Rand) but I do not have a US&S. Would love to acquire one. Here lately I have developed an interest in MKII grenades and am finding them to be very fun to collect.
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Kilroy was Here
Well-Known Member
You're correct, that's is a good point you make, this was not mentioned, that's exactly what they were marked......."S. Mfg Co. Elizabeth N.J."
At least you have 3 of the 5 WW2 .45's. Very Nice items to have.
I just happened to be in the right place, at the right time, and had an extra $350 in my pocket at the time I saw my US&S. :tinysmile_twink_t2: it was over 35 years ago too. There was not as much interest in .45's back then. Better get a US&S before they get too much more. It will only go up in value.
Collecting Guns, Grenades, militaria.... it's all good!
The Collecting of items of war, is as old as war itself.
Kilroy was Here
Well-Known Member
Hi Mark, some .45's were looser than others, it depends on the armorer who rebuilt that particular gun.
Maybe a few were slapped together so to say, but that does not mean it would not shoot well, or it would be unreliable. .45 auto's can be loose as a goose and still shoot very accurately.
You have to remember that by the time of the Vietnam war all the "1911A1's" were already 25 or so years old, and were rebuilt/re-arseneled at least a few times times already.
And your right, there's the fact that the armorers at the many different arsenals that did this work, used just about any parts if the parts were "within specs"
They also used hundreds if not thousands of 50-60 year old "WWI 1911" frames to rebuild and get .45's back into service. They also used WWI slides sometimes too.
There are many different and interesting re-arseneled .45's floating around. It's a whole separate collecting field for some collectors.