Mystery german casing ww1?!

[frijoles108]

Hello, this is my mystery german casing. It measures about 6.9 cm in diameter at the base and 11.4 cm in height. It has * symbols between the words patronenfabrik, and karlsruhe.

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[Hoeksel]

Could it be cut down? According my references these dimensions are unknown, but a 57x360R69 case exists....

 

[Alpini]

The headstamp says, that it wasn't used by the german military. It could be either for export or civil use.

The case mouth looks like from a blank.

 

[frijoles108]

The headstamp says, that it wasn't used by the german military. It could be either for export or civil use.

The case mouth looks like from a blank.

So guy I bought it off of claimed it was for a german howitzer....

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[Hoeksel]

Diameter of the mouth opening could help.

 

[frijoles108]

Diameter of the mouth opening could help.

Found it out, unfortunately appears to be a unfinished, cut down ww1 casing for the german gun of the likes that was put in the a7v

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[Mikike]

Hi,

I have a same case. I can' t see any cutting trace on my case. If it was cutted down it was very professional. The markingsatronenfabrik two flaming bombs symbols Karlsruhe 1900. It's similar to 57mm gruson bottom part, but their sizes are don't match. Can you recognize the type?

Thank you.

 

[frijoles108]

Hi,

I have a same case. I can' t see any cutting trace on my case. If it was cutted down it was very professional. The markingsatronenfabrik two flaming bombs symbols Karlsruhe 1900. It's similar to 57mm gruson bottom part, but their sizes are don't match. Can you recognize the type?
View attachment 154042
Thank you.

Hey Mikike,
I completely forgot that I had posted this on here asking what it was. After this post I had figured out it was most likely a cut down 57mm gruson casing and I no longer have it. When observing it sitting on its edge, which was very well cut as you noted for yours, I noticed the edge was not cut perfectly parallel to the base of the casing. So it passed the test for no wobble when it sat on its mouth which can be a telltale for something being chopped, but it sat at a slight tilt. I hope I helped somehow!
Ben

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[Mikike]

Hi,

Thanks your answer. I sure it's not gruson or nordenfelt. I think this caliber can be existed. Here are some pictures of my case. You can see on the picture .No any cutting. Inside you can see the trace of the shrapnel. Unfortunately I have no real information so i am not sure. But I think it can be used for some kind of german 6cm export gun. e.g. 6cm Bergkanonekrupp 1870.
Best regards!

 

[Vasco Da Gama]

These two cases pictured turned up recently and I think they perfectly match the one described by Mikike in 2019. They are both in very good condition and I can find not evidence they are cut down. We now have 4 different cases, one in the USA, one in Europe and two in the UK. I would be really surprised if they have been cut to the same dimensions by an amateur. The dates range from 1900 to 1908, but all made in Karlsruhe. The 1908 case is interesting as the primer has changes to a more standard German military one and I think the case has the acceptance mark of the Spandau Arsenal, could this indicate an export gun being used by the German forces in ww1, I await the expert view of Alpini on this subject!
On purchase I was told these were brought back from France by a WW1 veteran and remained in the family since.
The measurement are as stated by Millie, mouth 60mm, Length 116mm and rim 72mm. Pictured alongside a 57x225 for comparison.

 

[wingsofwrath]

I think I might have stumbled onto a partial solution - I found this listing on a South-African auction site of that is alleged to be a shell casing for the "6cm S-Bts K L/21", but it obviously isn't 60x64mmR. Instead it looks identical to those posted in this topic, so that got me thinking this might be from a colonial piece.

Sure enough, I found several references to a "6cm Gebirgskanone L/15 in Kolonial-Lafette M.1902" manufactured by Krupp, including a reference in a Krupp catalogue from the 1902 Düsseldorf exhibition. That particular album can't be found online, but, luckily for me, there is a report in French on that exhibition published in "Revue D'Artillerie" which is available on Gallica, including a drawing of our mysterious piece.


As can be seen from the drawing, this is a modern piece with vertical sliding-wedge breech, possibly a derivation of the Gruson system, since Grusonwerke had been acquired by Krupp in 1892. The article also mentions the fact it used fixed ammunition (unlike the 6 cm S-Bts K L/21 whose ammunition was semi-fixed and which had a Krupp style horizontal sliding-wedge breech), but, unfortunately there are no actual pictures of said ammunition for a conclusive identification.

 

[Vasco Da Gama]

​Many thanks for your research and the posted pictures. I have followed your lead and found a few references to 6cm Krupp mountain guns being used in the German colonies in Africa. Some of these appear to have still been in use in 1914.

Several types of mountain gun appear to have been used in the colonies. I have found mention of a fixed recoil 7,2 cm Gebirgskanone L/14 M98 potentially used in South West Africa and potentially by the Mountain batteries of the East Asian Expeditionary Corps. In East Africa there are mentions of two 6 cm Krupp Kolonial und Bergkanone M70 and a further three 6cm Gebirgshaubitze in Cameroon.
In 1904 Ehrhardt designed a new 75mm mountain gun of which only fifteen 7,5cm Gebirgskanone L/17 M08 were ever made and the gun may never have been used by the German army in Europe. Twelve of them were issued to the Schutztruppe of South West Africa in 1908.
Apparently a further two 7.5cm guns were brought to the Schutztruppe in German East Africa in 1916 on board the blockade runner SS Marie. These were 7,5cm Krupp Gebirgskanone L/14 M12.
I think with your find of a similar case to those I have being on a South African auction site we may be looking at the case for a German colonial gun used in German South West Africa.