British Ordnance Collectors Network
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
No24 before paint an and ageing.
- Thread starter ftobert
- Start date
Hello everyone just got a box of new toys of which 1 of them is a no24 mk1 so i will copy that one next week but first have some bits to make for bmg50 that I have been promising or weeks and have not got round to so will keep you all informed. And think your right about it being in restoration and preservation much better place for it, my fault for not thinking cheers rob
I know I'm just going to piss people off, but ..... how does this this fall under restoration or preservation? I would see it more fitting under "how to create fakes and pass them off as real". I'm not trying to accuse anyone or distort their intentions, but regardless of your intent, you are polluting the pool. Somewhere down the line these items will belong to someone else - none of us lives forever. Then it is just one more fake that the rest of us have to watch out for. In addition it serves as a primer for any less scrupulous, that would follow your lead and build fakes for sale. If we were collecting stamps or coins - or pretty much anything else - this would be heavily discouraged. People continuously offer bs justification - "I would never be able to afford", "I'd never be able to find", whatever - working at it and finding that elusive piece is what makes it rewarding. Faking it is not the answer and does not belong in this field of collecting. With all due respect, if that is someone's goal, join a modelling group, not a collector's group.
It was me who moved it to this category as i did not think it fitted in the grenades forum where it was originally posted with it been a newly fabricated item, and thought it would be of more use here showing what can be made if someone needed to make parts to restore an item
First of all I am not selling them on they are for my own collection and am making ONE of each no series grenade. they are going to be stamped as repro or similar. I am copying them accurately from grenades I already own. If you guys don't want to see my work and its bothering people then I won't bother posting it anymore just thought people would have found it interesting as I was thinking of making a kind if book on the engineering processes etc that were used to make the grenades and technical drawings similar to the ones in the front and back cover of grenade manual. I originally listed this under grenades and a couple of people suggested it was moved to restoration preservation and the moderator moved it which I was happy with. I have access to millions of pounds of equipment that average joe wouldn't have and years training. If I was planning on making "fakes" as you are suggesting why would I come on to the biggest ordinance collecting website and share my post etc showing pics and explaining what I was doin. I would have stayed quiet and fed them into the market. This is not my intentions at all as I am a serious collector and do not like getting ripped off and finding out I have spent my hard earned cash on a repro items, it has happened in the past and will happen again in the future I'm sure. So I will keep my collection to myself from now on and what I make I will keep for my own enjoyment.
US Subs is right in principle , of course , BUT that repro wouldn't fool anyone with any knowledge of British WW1 rifle grenades , it's like a photo copy of a Rembrandt . The guys made a beautiful item & well done for that . The whole point is it's so well made & the originals were n't . The bodies are cast iron & normally sand moulded & that one's steel by the looks of it & modern brass is completely different to the Admiralty quality used for the originals . There are fakes out there made to deceive , but that one never would & I'm sure he wouldn't want it to . Siegfreid.
I have no problems with repro's as they act as a stop gap to fill that void in a collection until the original turns up. Also with some of the rarer ordnance stuff, most collectors would never find or never be able to afford, like the items i am after, Buck igniters A and B and the S-Mi44 igniter, some of the many bits that are as rare as hens teeth. Some of this stuff is so delicate to handle that a replica substitute is a better option, like the Buck igniters. It also gives the collector a feel for the real piece that may turn up eventualy and what to look out for when resurching books and manuals etc If you display at shows being a reenactor, a replica is a much wiser choise as originals can get damaged or most of the time nicked, plenty of theives about at most of these events and i have heard many accounts of this happening. Its also handy to know someone who can make bits and pieces as some realy good items turn up only to be missing or have a damaged screw or nut etc. If its a rare piece how often will you get a chance to find that vital bit you have been after for years, you usualy have to rob it from another piece, highly unlikley. Although US SUBS is right in princible as Siegfreid says, it keeps collectors alert and on their toes, to gen ourselves up on the stuff we collect, I find it makes us more experts in our subject we collect as we examin the piece more closely and ask ourselves more questions about manufacture then and how a modern replica is made etc.
Last edited:
As Siegfried and bmc50 said I also don't like fakes as I have been caught out in the past but the ones I am making are going to be marked as repros and as Siegfried said it would be hard work to fool anyone with the ones I am making as although each one is dimensionally correct they are made from solid bar and not cast and only ONE of each type of grenade. These will never be available to the public as I can't stress enough it's for myself not for sale, gifts etc just me. I have offered my services and skills to bocn members to help others out and make friends not to make/produce fake grenades but as bmg50 said to make parts to complete grenades and ordinance. I hope this has cleared things up.
Fakes and reproductions/replicas/restorations are two entirely different things. We all know the difference. My suggestion is that the latter should be clearly maked in some way that cannot be removed without destroying the item. And, in a way that is immediately spotted.
A question that I've often asked, just to start a conversation, is: If a fake is so good that it fools even the most knowledgeable expert, is it still a fake?
Ray
A question that I've often asked, just to start a conversation, is: If a fake is so good that it fools even the most knowledgeable expert, is it still a fake?
Ray
Nice work Rob, I hope all this discussion doesn't put you off BOCN and that you continue to show the things you make.
There can't be too many people who have access to millions of pounds worth of machining equipment and have years of machining experience.
Dave.
There can't be too many people who have access to millions of pounds worth of machining equipment and have years of machining experience.
Dave.
butterfly
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Ray, I think no matter how good a fake is, it doesnt alter the fact that its a fake. IE something representing something its not, wether that be a painting, article of furniture, printed material or otherwise. The workmanship may well be as good, in some cases better than the original, but if its a representation, then it remains just that. However I see your point you are making.
I think the points being made within the thread are more to do with the future of our hobby than anything else. If we dont speak up about replicas/fake items, then I think we are condemming the people that follow in our footsteps. As it has been pointed out the items we have will outlive us and our collections and that is where the problem lies. Already there are excellent items out there that fool some and others that even outwit the most experienced of collectors.........I am sure we have all be burned at some time. The only way round it as I see is to take a responsible attitude and make sure that any 'replica' items that we buy to 'fill the gap' are marked in such a way as not to fool, because otherwise that 95% original item with 5% replica parts will become 100% original when its passed through a couple of hands 20 years or so later, with natural ageing. The responsibility is as much in our own hands as anything else, if we are purhasing a replica filler cap for a mills does it matter that it is engraved replica on the bottom of it? likewise for any other item? Why is it neccessary to have something marked up with a false date, manufacturer etc if its not original - then a replica becomes a fake doesnt it?
Personally I try to stay clear of replica parts within my collection.......I do have one or two, but these are different enough to be easily identifiable and I use them as items of reference only.
Now ftobert has made it clear that he intends only to make one of each item and indeed mark it up as replica and I for one find his workmanship outstanding and would love to see more of his creations. I also respect his own desire to create these items, it must be a good feeling to be able to put together such an item at your own hand. The argument in my mind is that is a No24 grenade that scarce to warrent such an undertaking? I'm no grenade collector but have seen a number of these for sale and surely all the answers of production could be explained by simply examining an original item which has been dis-assembled ..... photos of which I am sure a number of members could give if they so desired.
Whatever ones opinions I would like to congratulate ftobert on his personal achievement.
I think perhaps the only worrying thing is that they are just so good, with just a few 'tweeks' they would fool the majority.......and its this thought that is concerning, in the wrong hands this could be quite destructive to the future would-be collectors.
regards Kev
I think the points being made within the thread are more to do with the future of our hobby than anything else. If we dont speak up about replicas/fake items, then I think we are condemming the people that follow in our footsteps. As it has been pointed out the items we have will outlive us and our collections and that is where the problem lies. Already there are excellent items out there that fool some and others that even outwit the most experienced of collectors.........I am sure we have all be burned at some time. The only way round it as I see is to take a responsible attitude and make sure that any 'replica' items that we buy to 'fill the gap' are marked in such a way as not to fool, because otherwise that 95% original item with 5% replica parts will become 100% original when its passed through a couple of hands 20 years or so later, with natural ageing. The responsibility is as much in our own hands as anything else, if we are purhasing a replica filler cap for a mills does it matter that it is engraved replica on the bottom of it? likewise for any other item? Why is it neccessary to have something marked up with a false date, manufacturer etc if its not original - then a replica becomes a fake doesnt it?
Personally I try to stay clear of replica parts within my collection.......I do have one or two, but these are different enough to be easily identifiable and I use them as items of reference only.
Now ftobert has made it clear that he intends only to make one of each item and indeed mark it up as replica and I for one find his workmanship outstanding and would love to see more of his creations. I also respect his own desire to create these items, it must be a good feeling to be able to put together such an item at your own hand. The argument in my mind is that is a No24 grenade that scarce to warrent such an undertaking? I'm no grenade collector but have seen a number of these for sale and surely all the answers of production could be explained by simply examining an original item which has been dis-assembled ..... photos of which I am sure a number of members could give if they so desired.
Whatever ones opinions I would like to congratulate ftobert on his personal achievement.
I think perhaps the only worrying thing is that they are just so good, with just a few 'tweeks' they would fool the majority.......and its this thought that is concerning, in the wrong hands this could be quite destructive to the future would-be collectors.
regards Kev
Kev. No 24's aren't particularly scarce & the one our friend has made would never fool anyone . The problem arises when people try to make extremely rare grenades like the 12 or 44 , both of which have been replicated over the years with the express purpose of trying to fool buyers . I have seen examples of both & my advice would be , never buy one that does not have a cast iron pedigree . The bigger problem is original items that have been tweaked with repaints etc then passed off as totally original . Difficult to spot most of the time but not impossible . In the meantime , ftobert can carry on his wonderful engineering for his own satisfaction , love it ! Mike.
Hello again I would like to thank Siegfreid, sg500, butterfly and anyone else for there nice comments. The reason I did the no24 mk2 first was because I have only just started collecting again and actually brought a relic one from siegfreid ( thankyou by the way ) and have decided to only do a copy of ones I own originals of so I can get the dimentions correct etc. i hope to have a original and a copy of every no series british grenade ( i know a long time away yet lol ) They will all be clearly stamped ( replica ) or a ( r ) on small componants and I will post a pic of the 24mk2 either tommorow with it all stamped up also I will post a couple of pics of the machinery I have access to 24/7 so the nice people on bocn can see the facility's that's on offer. I have brought a collection of mainly original grenades from another bocn member that include in very nice condition: no2, no15, no16, no22, no 24mk1, another no24mk2, no26, no35, no77 and have also picked up a few others over the last few weeks. So the next one I will do is either the no24 mk1 or the no 35. the 35 is so similar to the 24mk2 I will probably do the 24mk1 first. The materiels I will be making them out of will be similar or the same as originals and dimensionally the same but as I said I will stamp all componants deeply with replica or r also my ones will all be made from solid material not castings so easy to spot anyway. The brass will be chemically aged and bodies painted to what they would have looked like fresh from the factory so I can display my one next to the original. I will be going to detling in a couple of weeks to the show so if anyone going would like to meet up and have a drink and a chat I will bring the 24mk1 and 24mk2 (if finished)along with me so you can see what there like also if you need help with bits and bobs. It's not just making things I can recut stripped threads, helicoil threads, fine bead blast for restorations welding broken castings etc. so in not goin to let this put me off as 99% of bocn members are nice people and would like to share what I am doing with you all. Once again not trying deceive, fake, cover up anything it's for my own collection and will never be able to be confused with original items and only 1 made of each. Cheers rob
I'm not convinced. The difference between a fake and a reproduction is simply intent. And a reproduction is a fake without malice - when it was created. Reproduction is just a softening of the word so that is less offensive to those who partake.
While an individual may feel that their intent in making the fake is harmless, they are not likely to be the last owner of the item. The next owner may not be so pure of heart. To think otherwise I feel is incredibly short-sighted. As Ordnance mentioned in a different thread today in regard to an item of his, "you'll just have to wait for my estate sale like everyone else". You should recognize that the items in your collection live on beyond yourself or your ideals. When you are gone you will have little to say about where your collection - or fakes, end up.
This is a justifiably proud forum of collectors, the British Ordnance Collectors Network, yet more and more frequently I see threads and posts from people that seem to lack the patience or drive to actually collect. Individuals that want the immediate satisfaction of filling their shelf today. Fading away is the empty space reserved for that piece I've been hunting for all my life. This goes both for the fakes and for the restorations. Making a cover for a sticky bomb, in example, is not restoration. It is putting a fake cover on your grenade. Some of the same people that praise the workmanship on these items have in the past lamented about items seen on auction sites, asking forum members "is it original?" "has this been faked?". This very forum has a section with tips in an effort to try and spot fakes.
Mike, your comments on the 24s not fooling anyone are based on perspective, personal experience and your own manner of purchasing items. Not everyone has the same background or ability. For the less experienced collector in Kansas, the Ukraine, Australia etc - trying to make a purchase from a photo on an auction site, this may be the first one they ever see - you saw one for the first time once as well. In the future you will buy other items that you will see for the first time. Wouldn't it be nice to buy a stick grenade off the internet, without serious concerns that it was made in someone's garage in 2009?
This is not a rant against ftobert - he is a machinist, they like to play with their tools, I get that. I mean him no offense, at least not personally. This is a rant against the rest of you, who I believe are being short-sighted and hypocritical in supporting actions of this type that directly and indirectly threaten the history and the study of something I care very much about. All of you that have collected for more than a few years know the frustration. Studying a piece you have found for which you have little or no information, trying to determine if it is an actual piece of history - a variation or something unknown, a licensed copy or a factory reject - or instead some piece of trash, made by anyone for any of a dozen reasons - none of them relevant to the actual history or functioning of the true item.
As they say, it is a free world, and we all know what opinions are like, mine included. In case it got lost in my rant above, I have no time for fakes. I am an ordnance collector.
Well US-SUBS and EOD you are obviously not bothering to read my replies and posts I have explained they will be stamped replica and no way of confusing them as they are made differently. I will be doing it regardless of your oppinions and still post the results as most bocn members find it interesting. I bet if alot of you had the know how and equipment you would be doing similar as its very satisfying to look at finished piece and say I have just made that it also gives me alot of knowledge on how each grenade works etc as I reserch each one when I make it. It's not going to effect either of you will as never see them, they will be with me for my life and passed down through the family and with me being 25 I will probably out live alot of you anyway. I am not arguing with you any more as there's only so many time I can explain myself if your not going to read it that's not my problem.