relic lee enfield ww1

[sscrooge]

picked this up the other day, i have the info on where it was found in 1984 but left it at work,, anyway heres the rifle, rgds Dave

 

[gothica7]

Hi Dave,

nice bits but one problem i see. Is there a live round up the spout? If so and you cant check then it should be considered a non deactivated weapon and you can only hold it legally with a Section 5 Firearms cert.

Andy

 

[dano1917]

Beautiful relic Dave, in my opinion pretty much what collecting is about. It was THERE...Dano

 

[TonyE]

Hi Dave,

nice bits but one problem i see. Is there a live round up the spout? If so and you cant check then it should be considered a non deactivated weapon and you can only hold it legally with a Section 5 Firearms cert.

Andy

Whether there is a live round or not in the chamber and no matter how much of a relic it is, technically it is still a firearm. To be a legally deactivated weapon it would need a Proof House Certificate to that effect. However, it would be a Section 1 weapon not a Section 5. Section 5 is for prohibited items, including machine guns and armour piercing ammunition to name but two.

It is important that people know and understand the law on firearms if they wish to remain within the law.

Regards
TonyE

 

[smle2009]

Trouble with relics such as these is that they always used to be in a very grey area of the law,you can still see militaria dealers openly selling them un-restricted, I personaly know of dealers taken to court and recieved the penalties on the grounds stated by TonyE above,I have also seen them walk out of court with charges dismissed and allowed to pick up the relics from the police station involved.
However things have changed and they have now got this one sown up,it is also illegal to remove such relics from the ground in France and Belgium without the proper authority(which usually results in destruction)
Unfortunatly a lot of dealers/collectors are not aware of the new(ish) amendments to the firearms law and carry on as before.

Andy of Andysarmory fame and myself can also vouch for Gothica7's concerns about a live 'un in the breech from our experence with some WW1 Gew 98's from Belgium!!!

Tony

 

[pointblank0]

A lovely rifle. Shame it can't speak! There are quite a lot of case law bits and bobs regarding the legality of relic rifles, and it has been held on quite a few occasions, that a rifle that is in such a state (as in dug rusted relics like this), is incapable of discharging a missile, thus falling outside of the sec 1 firearms legislation. However, as stated, this is case law and depends on the judge on the day, so if you go in front of a judge who has a bad hangover and has had a domestic with his wife that morning, you would be found guilty of possessing a sec 1 firearm without a licence.
Best not complicate things really and seek advice. Firearms law has really tightened over the last few years. That's my opinion anyway

 

[sscrooge]

wow never realised this relic needed deacting as its bolts seized solid and couldnt chamber a round plus barrel is bent, i may take it to the police station and ask them but no doubt they will just destroy it, i do have a firearm and shotgun licence and dont want to lose them for keeping this , i have a nice 1917 lee enfield thats bored out to 4.10 thats on my shotgun licence, thanks again for the info , cheers Dave

 

[smle2009]

I should ask your firearms officer, rather than taking it to the police station, how they stand with these types of relics,should be easy to put it on your ticket if needed and maybe worth quoating the definition of a firearm as Pointblank stated above 'any arm capable of discharging shot or projectile' yours clearly is not,if they are happy with that then no risk to your FAC

Tony

 

[dogdog]

I have had a few of these over the years and very nice they are too.
wish i still had them.
if you look at the position of the cocking piece you can work out if it has a live round in the tube or not.
if it is fully forward it is more than likely empty or with a fired case.
this is good to bare in mind when purchasing if it is pulled back in the ready to fire position then it almost always will have a live round in it and then best left alone.
Andy

 

[smle2009]

Cocking piece position is NO indication of if there is a round in the breech,common practice in WW1 was to chamber a round with the trigger pulled back(chambers a round without cocking the bolt),reason for this was it was a lot quieter pulling the cocking piece back two clicks(half cock and full cock) than operating the bolt in the normal way.

Tony

 

[sscrooge]

I took it to my local police station last friday,they then seized it whilst it was sent off to the armoury to be checked out ,i got it back about 10 mins ago so now at least i know its ok, rgds Dave

 

[spotter]

good result Dave better safe than sorry,thanks for the update

 

[smle2009]

Nice one Dave:wink:

Cheers
Tony

 

[dogdog]

Cocking piece position is NO indication of if there is a round in the breech,common practice in WW1 was to chamber a round with the trigger pulled back(chambers a round without cocking the bolt),reason for this was it was a lot quieter pulling the cocking piece back two clicks(half cock and full cock) than operating the bolt in the normal way.

Tony

Hi Tony
How sure are you of this i have never heard of this before?
it would only be of use if you were very very very close to the enemy then a rifle is the wrong wepon.
and if you needed one up the spout you would use the safty not an un-cocked bolt the position of the cocking piece is an indecation of the wepons status. and if silance was needed it would be faster and make less noise to take the safty off than cock the bolt you could also keep your aim better.
Andy

 

[smle2009]

100% sure, cleared enough of these relics in this state from family farmland in Belgium before now,most people take aim after cocking,removing saftey ect and sound travels a bloody long way at night!

And my point still stands that an 'uncocked' weapon is NO indication of not having a round in the breech,so what is your point?

Tony

 

[dogdog]

I have had a few of these over the years and very nice they are too.
wish i still had them.
if you look at the position of the cocking piece you can work out if it has a live round in the tube or not.
if it is fully forward it is more than likely empty or with a fired case.
this is good to bare in mind when purchasing if it is pulled back in the ready to fire position then it almost always will have a live round in it and then best left alone.
Andy

Hi tony
if you look at what i typed my point was it it is cocked back then it will be loaded and best not to purchase. if it is not cocked then (more than more than lickly not loaded) so my point is avoid the cocked ones and you take your chances with the rest.
i hope that is clear.
regards
Andy

 

[smle2009]

Hi Andy,
I fully understand your point about examples being cocked are a sure indication of the weapon being loaded and totaly agree with you,however your other point in your original reply about an uncocked weapon being a sign of not 'one in the tube' is errorendous and potentially dangerous information to give another concerned member. I have read what you typed and responded to it.
To clear up any misunderstanding,this is the part of your original reply I picked up on "if you look at the position of the cocking piece you can work out if it has a live round in the tube or not." here you clearly state that if it is uncocked it is safe and that is a dangerous assumption my friend.
There are only two ways of finding out if a relic firearm is 'safe'(not saying legal!) that I know of,without destroying it,one is by X-ray and the other I am unable to discuss without breaking BOCN rules.

All the best
Tony

 

[dogdog]

tony you are incorect
please dont skim read a post then state that i am giving bad advice.
if you pull someone up then have the facts right you are claming that i have clearly stated that if it is uncocked it is safe. then you tell me that this is dangerous assumptions. i think you are reading things into my words that are just not there.
i am still not sure that it was common practice to cary a live but uncocked weapon? i have done a little looking on line and have found nothing. where did you get this info how do you know it was common practice?
When i did weapons training we would have got a kicking if we did that and i have no reason to think it would be different then.
i am always happy to be proved wrong however.
Andy

 

[dogdog]

picked this up the other day, i have the info on where it was found in 1984 but left it at work,, anyway heres the rifle, rgds Dave

Hi Dave
sorry to have took over the thread somewhat with Tony
very nice relic i hope you get to keep it.
best regards
Andy

 

[TonyE]

I am with Tony here. In post #17 you said "if it is fully forward it is more than likely empty or with a fired case.", and that is what he was taking issue with. Even if the coking piece is forward, one cannot be sure there is not a live round in the cahmber. Habits were different in the trenches ninety years ago.

In any case, these type of relics need to be checked with your local FLO and if agreed to be OK then that decision needs to be in writing. People and opinions change over time!

Regards
TonyE