Replica 9.2 inch Projectiles

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

Following on from the work I started last year with the No. 36 replica charge bag cylinders, I've managed to get the replica 9.2 inch projectiles underway. The first stage of the project is to produced concrete projectiles as these will be going outside and will have to resist damage from the vandals. The drawback of this is we have one expensive mould and its been formed around the SHOT, PRACTICE form of projectile as this is the simplest form to make. It will be used to represent Practice, APC and HE rounds. Its not the optimum way to go, but its the best way for rounds that are likely to be damaged or stolen. The shells will be painted with their correct colours and markings for the 3 types APC, HE and SP.

Here's a photo of the Pattern. Due to the weight (380 lbs/172kg) of a 9.2 inch projectile using an original as a pattern wasn't feasible. The pattern ended up weighing around 40 kgs.



Mould




Concrete 9.2 inch projectiles destined to be PRACTICE, APC and HE rounds. Ohhh and colourful bollards. The dark one on the far right has just come out of the mould after sitting in it for 7 days.



The projectiles have to sit and harden for at least 28 days once out of the mould then I can look at painting and stenciling them. At the moment I have a number of questions and it relates to the markings. I've worked out most of the markings and know what model the projectiles will be.

APC: Mark XIII B
HE: Mark XVII B
PRACTICE: Mark VIII B

These have been chosen because they all have the same CRH and driving band design to lessen the number of moulds that will need to be made in stage two of the project.

Dose anyone have a reference to the various fill method codes that are used on the 9.2 inch projectiles. APC is fine as I have the code for that 6269.

Dose anyone know what the code is for 9.2 inch Mark XVII B H.E. rounds is?

Anyone have any photos of HE stacked up in which I could get the code from?

Can anyone confirm for me if the SHOT, PRACTICE rounds had the standard markings stenciled on the projectile in white such as the Calibre, Type, Mark, Weight and Lot/serial number? The few photos I've seen of the SP rounds show the white tip, yellow band but never any markings (they could be on the other side of the shell of course).




Stage two of the project will be the construction in a similar manner to the No. 36 cylinders in which the projectiles will be made using foam ends fitted to a steel tube body. To do this will require the making of 5 separate moulds (2 base types) (3 nose types) and possibly 3 lengths of steel tube sections (still have to work that out).


Roller63, if you read this could you check your PM's :tinysmile_shy_t:

 

[Slick]

VERY interesting. Nice mold. A shame they will be, as you say, stolen or damaged. Where will these be displayed?

 

[HAZORD]

Seems like quite the interesting project. You should think about selling some copies to recoup some of the costs in making your molds.

 

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

VERY interesting. Nice mold. A shame they will be, as you say, stolen or damaged. Where will these be displayed?

We will do our best to ensure that they will not be stolen, the headache is if they are made from a more flammable material the little angels will just set first to them or try to break them. These will end up being in the emplacement to help our visitors understand what the storage lockers and shelves are for dotted around the floor of the gun pit. There is nothing worse than having visitors come back and looking at the same empty hole in the ground.

All this work is for 165 Battery, 10th Coast Regiment, Royal New Zealand Artillery. Site 'W' or locally known as the Wrights Hill Fortress which is positioned on a hill above the suburb of Karori in Wellington, New Zealand. http://www.whfrs.org.nz

 

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

Seems like quite the interesting project. You should think about selling some copies to recoup some of the costs in making your molds.

Selling these could be an option, and like you said I have thought of doing that to fund stage two of the project. I think Kahu1 would like to roll one of these down the hill and over to home. The concrete versions weigh about 45 kgs (I think) production of the projectiles is slow, 1 a week, then they require a month to harden. The initial batch will be around 24 projectiles.


There are a number of items I'm looking for relating to 9.2 inch ammunition. They are:-

No. 16 or 16D Base Fuze

No. 346 Base Fuze

No. 45 or 45P Fuze

No. 15 Fuze Hole Plug

Tube, Vent, Percussion, .5 inch

Tube, Vent, Electric, .5 inch


Anyone know what size threaded screw hole would be in the side of the HE Projectile for the lifting bolt at the centre of gravity? I have to put the hole in the side of the concrete one and can't find any refernce to the size of the lifting bolt.

 

[kahu1]

Just don't roll it form the top of the hill,it might go through my house!..

 

[HAZORD]

You can actually strip the forms off within a day or two. You can get the concrete to set up much faster if you use hot water to make it, and if you go to a local concrete plant and get some of their calcium additive to mix with the hot water, they will set up in a few hours. Just don't abuse them when you strip off the forms, and then let them cure for the 28 days if you wish. We also have a cement here they call high-early. They use for winter when the concrete doesn't want to set up and for the prestressed beams used in bridges. If you mix your concrete with high-early, calcium, and hot water it will set up almost before you get it in the mold.

 

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

You can actually strip the forms off within a day or two. You can get the concrete to set up much faster if you use hot water to make it, and if you go to a local concrete plant and get some of their calcium additive to mix with the hot water, they will set up in a few hours. Just don't abuse them when you strip off the forms, and then let them cure for the 28 days if you wish. We also have a cement here they call high-early. They use for winter when the concrete doesn't want to set up and for the prestressed beams used in bridges. If you mix your concrete with high-early, calcium, and hot water it will set up almost before you get it in the mold.

Thanks for the information about the concrete, I will pass it along to the guy making them.

 

[Slick]

And there's this stuff: http://www.quikrete.com/PDFs/DATA_SHEET-Fast Setting Concrete Mix 1004-50.pdf

 

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

Thanks for the information, we've just picked up an electric pencil concrete vibrator, hopefully this will help with some of the slight issues that have been happening lately where it looks like a 'snail trails' running across the surface........ where it looks like the cement hasn't mixed or is washed out.. This is on the inside of the mould. I think these particular projectiles will be used in the areas that are most likely to be damaged.... no one will notice the difference LOL



Here's a question..........

On a PRACTICE SHOT round, what markings are stenciled on to it?

Shot Practice Round markings aren't detailed in the handbook for the Gun, it details they different marks of rounds but not what their markings are.

Since the round isn't 'Filled' and there is no tracer element I can remove the reference to the filling station and date.


This is what I'm proposing to mark in white on one side:


9.2 " GUN MK VIIIB

LOT 109

379 LBS.



Of course 3 inches of the tip will be painted white and it will have the 2 inch yellow band around the shoulder and will be marked with the Center of Gravity -()- in three places in white.

Would the above be correct for a British 9.2 inch Shot Practice Projectile? any changes, additions, deletions, alterations that anyone can suggest?

 

[Bonnex]

Re markings on Shot Practice, there is a photograph in RAOS* showing a Mk 10B stencilled:

9.2" G
SHOT MK10

about 2 feet 2 inches from the base
band and CoG markings as normal but no white tip

and a Mk 7A stencilled:

P
9.2 GUN MK 7A

about 6 inches from the base
band, CoG and white tip as normal.

no Lot or Weight markings visible in the image (maybe on the reverse).

it does defer to Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings (WO Code 1803) for markings.

* Regulations for Army Ordnance Services, Volume 4 - Ammunition
Pamphlet No 6 BL Ammunition
Part 6 BL 9.2-in Gun
dated November 1954

 

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

Thanks for the information, I can use that as a guide, I would say for WW2 dated ammunition they would be using the older roman numeral mark designations so I'll change it to

9.2" GUN
PRACTICE MK VIII B or (PRAC MK VIII B) or (P MK VIII B)

The few WW2 photos I have seen have shown the rounds with the white tips, so I'll keep that.

On the back at this stage I'll go with

LOT xxx
xx - xx - xx (date)
DEAD WT. (or 379 LBS or 378 LBS)

Re markings on Shot Practice, there is a photograph in RAOS* showing a Mk 10B stencilled:

9.2" G
SHOT MK10

about 2 feet 2 inches from the base
band and CoG markings as normal but no white tip

and a Mk 7A stencilled:

P
9.2 GUN MK 7A

about 6 inches from the base
band, CoG and white tip as normal.

no Lot or Weight markings visible in the image (maybe on the reverse).

it does defer to Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings (WO Code 1803) for markings.

* Regulations for Army Ordnance Services, Volume 4 - Ammunition
Pamphlet No 6 BL Ammunition
Part 6 BL 9.2-in Gun
dated November 1954

 

[Bonnex]

Thanks for the information, I can use that as a guide, I would say for WW2 dated ammunition they would be using the older roman numeral mark designations so I'll change it to

9.2" GUN
PRACTICE MK VIII B or (PRAC MK VIII B) or (P MK VIII B)

The few WW2 photos I have seen have shown the rounds with the white tips, so I'll keep that.

On the back at this stage I'll go with

LOT xxx
xx - xx - xx (date)
DEAD WT. (or 379 LBS or 378 LBS)

Yes, of course re Roman Mark numerals, I hadn't considered that. Sept 1944 Land Service cuts over to Arabic numerals and a couple of months later for Naval and Air.

Good to get the marking pre-1945 since there are several changes in 1945, 1948 and the early fifties. Would be good to get AE501 commenting on the marking.

 

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

I'm temped to do one practice round in the later 'practice blue' with white lettering and the later style numbering.

Later rounds wouldn't have the black or yellow 2 inch band as the 9.2 inch Howitzer would of been withdrawn from service, so there wouldn't need to show there was Howitzer and Gun ammunition of the same caliber and from what you said about the image I wouldn't need to do the white tip either. :tinysmile_fatgrin_t

That would be something different

 

[AE501]

1 inch on the opposite side to the C of G mark. The C of G is supposed to be approx 14.7 " up from the base but I expect in reality, if you were going to have to put it somewhere accurate to lift it the mark and plug hole would be somewhere different, due to the differences inside the shell.
These shell go back to the late 19th century with no major changes because there was no need for it. There were changes of mark during WW1 when they really got some use when they were used as railway guns and large field batteries. I doubt that there was much need to change the markings from WW1 because after the war they were in static coast defence positions and the Ordnance Corps stocks were mainly held in underground storage at Corsham.
The Lyddite filled APC shell were painted buff middle (an insipid yellow) not bright yellow because this indicates something different.
They had two white rings just under the point where the cap meets the shell body, with a red filling ring between.
I would suggest that between the wars the 2" wide black band immediately above the driving band would have been put on because the 9.2" howitzer would have been in existence. Even when the 9.2" How disappeared there would have been little point in instituting a scrape and repaint programme just for the sake of appearances in such a low priority weapon.
At this point I would like a rant about ordnance services policy. They would introduce a new markings system, withdraw your old markings book and give you a new one, in the belief that hundreds on thousands of tons of ammunition and packages had mysteriously repainted themselves to the new markings system overnight.

 

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

AE501, thank you for the information its very insightful.

I was thinking of putting the CofG at the actually point of lifting...... this will require some rope and a bit of manual lifting to find the point. Lucky the concrete ones are a lot lighter! I think you're right with the painting of the ammunition, the only time it would change is when it was a new batch direct from the factory which followed the requirements of the contract or if at an ordnance deport or magazine the round required repainting and they followed the 'current' rules for painting of the ammunition. It must of been a nightmare at times for the ammo techs.

Do you know what diameter hole the lifting bolt hole would be on the H.E. MK XVIIB rounds? Would it be 3/4 inch or 1 inch?


Another question, do you know what markings are on the H.E. MK XVIIB rounds, from what I gather there is suppose to be a design/fill method number given, but I can't find an image showing me what this number this is for the 9.2 inch round. I have the number for the the APC its '6269'

 

[AE501]

I found the 1" lifting bolt hole size in a drawing in the Treatise on Ammunition 1903.
I think you are putting markings on shot and shell which would never have made it to coast defence batteries, but are shown in photos.
In the Textbook of Ammunition 1936 it says that the priority for 9.2" coast defence guns is so low that they were still issuing Lyddite filled shot and shell from WW1 and even GP filled shot and shell from the turn of the century.
I would go for something more realistic like the markings given in Treatise on Ammunition 1915 (see photo) and make it up from there. You can get this from downloads.
You could do two with a black body, one for APC filled HE with the white/red/white rings at about a point where a ballistic cap would have fitted as photo and one with the yellow band round the middle and white tip denoting AP shot or practice.
The other one could be yellow (buff not bright) denoting Lyddite filled shell with the markings as photo.
All these markings are still the same in the 1936 textbook.
The other thing is that you will be able to include the colonial marking NZ with the broad arrow pointing upwards between the letters.
As regards the C of G and the lifting bolt hole, you could put these in about the right place, if the real C of G was far from the original and move it by sling. You will not be using a lifting bolt? and the hole is plugged with tallow or something until needed.

 

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

Thank you for the information, I will drill a 1 inch hole into the side of the 'HE' rounds at the CofG.

In one aspect we are lucky, I know we had Mk XIIB APC and Mk. XB Shot, Practice Rounds as we have 2 examples of each and there are photos of the rounds when the Fortress was being built and a sister Fortress was used for Live Firing in the 50's (unfortunately the images don't provide the markings detail). The Fortresses were build during the second world war, from what I have seen our ammunition dates from the early 40's and in fact one of the APC rounds was made by the Americans as it has an Anchor with U | S on either side of it, just under the shells serial number '3000'. The shell did have the WNZ station marking on it, so I think it might of been repainted in NZ at some stage?



The issue with creating the concrete replicas and doing a mould is I had to step back and go what what marks have the commonality between the CRH and the simpler RL14093A Driving Band so that one mould could be used to best represent the three types of rounds. SO in this case we end up having the later type rounds, all have to be 'B' type CRH and that means the HE round would be the late XVIIB round, filled with either TNT or Lyddite, with a CE or TNT No. 9 or 10 Gaine. The Handbook for the gun details what you pointed out about the Lyddite/TNT colours. "High explosive (TNT) shell are painted yellow"..... "Lyddite filled shell have the body painted plain yellow" I take it that's the 'Buff Middle' colour you refer to......... I wonder what the modern equivalent is today, I will get some and paint one of the shells in that colour and others in the Yellow of TNT filling.

 

[AE501]

From what you say, it would appear that you had some later marks of projectile, probably because the threat in the Far East theatre was greater than in Europe.
Your projectiles are all CPBC (Common Pointed Ballistic Capped) shaped and those classed as Piercing HE shell would have had a plain red filling ring under the cap join (by this time the temperate climate plain ring was in use in all climatic conditions to ease wartime production and was continued from then on). Still buff basic body colour.

Piercing AP Capped HE shell (ballistic cap was classed as cap for this type of shell, different to anti tank ballistic capped shell which had a mild steel cap, under the ballistic cap, to engrave on armour, when striking at oblique angles, to prevent hardened tips bouncing off). These has the white /red /white rings as before. In the pre '44 system this went under the cap join but in the '44 - '48 system it went on the bottom of the cap.

The idea of shot with a filling of any kind, other than tracer, finished somewhere between the wars when shot use changed from plunging projectiles penetrating from a great height, to direct line of sight fire at maximum terminal velocity to penetrate tanks, fortifications etc and only these types were painted black by WW2.

So both your piercing types would have had a buff basic body colour by this time. I will send a plate separately because I have not copied it yet and would lose this and have to redo it. What I will send is the later TNT model.

The Practice shot , in both marking systems, would have had a black BBC and a white tip, with a yellow band round the body, about where the bottom of the cap is. Any explosive filling or tracer would be indicated by a plain red ring immediately below the white tip in contact with it.

 

[AE501]

Here are the plates as promised.